US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE

[benjipwns]

Dodd-Frank was one of the biggest hoodwinks, I still can't believe some of the otherwise smarter progressives who fell for it and still do. Fuck, I know Marxists who do. As if Chris Dodd has ever been attached to anything against large capital interests.

And how did so few people realize the CFPB is just a clusterfuck like DHS instead of some kind of savior just because Elizabeth Warren backed it. "All these agencies failed independently, let's mash them together and give them more authority but less accountability!"

[Phoenix Dark]

*Mandark alert, Mandark alert*

[benjipwns]

smh, we start talking about banks and PD instantly thinks "we need a Jew"

[Human Snorenado]

smh, we start talking about banks and PD instantly thinks "we need a Jew"

You rang?

[Phoenix Dark]

Koch Brothers Group Fighting Detroit Bankruptcy Deal

LANSING, Mich. (AP) — Americans for Prosperity, the conservative advocacy group supported by the Koch brothers, has launched an effort to torpedo a proposed settlement in the Detroit bankruptcy case, potentially complicating chances for completing the deal just as its prospects seemed to be improving.

The organization, formed to fight big government and spending, is contacting 90,000 conservatives in Michigan and encouraging them to rally against a plan to provide $195 million in state money to help settle Detroit pension holders' claims in the case, a key element of the deal.

The group has threatened to run ads against members of the Republican-controlled Legislature who vote in favor of the appropriation before the state's August primary. An initial legislative vote may come this week.

Using public money for Detroit's case "is very toxic, especially to out-state and Republican, conservative-leaning individuals," said Scott Hagerstrom, director of the Americans for Prosperity's chapter in the state. "Even out-state Democrats, why send any more money to Detroit? Certainly other areas of the state have needs."

The group's move is a blow to Republican Gov. Rick Snyder, who proposed the state cash as a final ingredient to bring the 10-month-long bankruptcy case to a conclusion. Some creditors are fighting the "grand bargain," but it recently drew support from major retiree groups and unions. The bankruptcy court trial on the
city's case will be held this summer.

"This is a settlement. This not a bailout," Snyder said. "And I want to be very, very clear about that."

Ten-year-old Americans for Prosperity, which plans to spend at least $125 million nationally helping conservatives in the midterm elections, is becoming more active in state politics. Its willingness to spend millions for advertising has made it a powerful player in political contests.

Dave Doyle, a political strategist and former chairman of the Michigan Republican Party, said the organization's opposition could make a difference even though polling shows considerable public support for a settlement.

"What does have an impact is if they start spending a lot of money on TV and radio and doing mailings into people's districts. The threat of that would get some people to pay attention," he said.

Snyder, who took the lead in resolving Detroit's fiscal crisis by appointing an
emergency manager for the city's operations, proposed the $195 million to match commitments from private foundations. The money would limit pension cuts for the approximately 30,000 retirees and city workers to no more than 4.5 percent and avert the need to liquidate the Detroit Institute of Art's collection to raise money. Snyder and city leaders say the museum is important to rebuilding Detroit as a world-class city.

Despite the cost, "It would be more positive to get this behind us," Snyder said. "How many of us have traveled somewhere in the country or the world and had to listen about this bankruptcy?"

But the question is a tough sell for many Republicans, who blame the Democratic-dominated city's problems on corruption and overly powerful labor unions.

"I think every member of the Legislature wishes we weren't in this situation where we even have to consider it," said Rep. Robert VerHeulen, a Republican from conservative western Michigan.

VerHeulen said he worries about setting a bailout precedent if other cities fall
into financial ruin but also sees the value in settling to keep pensioners from suing.

Snyder, a computer company CEO and venture capitalist before he became governor in 2011, has a mixed record in lobbying the Legislature's more conservative Republicans. He persuaded just enough to support expanding Medicaid to more low-income adults yet failed to win legislative support for a state-run health insurance marketplace.

Republican House Speaker Jase Bolger has warned that the bills may not advance unless the city workers' unions agree to kick in some cash toward the settlement. Snyder must also persuade Democrats despite their unhappiness with his use of his executive powers to take over control of Detroit's finances.

Americans for Prosperity intends to turn up the heat on the Republicans, who hold 26 of the 38 seats in the Senate and 59 of 110 House districts.

"Tell Lansing politicians that Detroit has gotten enough of our tax dollars," the group says on a website created to oppose the aid. "More money can't fix Detroit."

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/koch-brothers-group-fighting-detroit-bankruptcy-deal

I've often wondered why these groups don't spend more money targeting state politics. Seems way more effective than what they normally do - give losing state-wide senate candidates millions of dollars to run negative ads.

[Human Snorenado]

Art Pope (a Koch protege) did just that in NC. He basically owns the state now, the Governor (that he paid to elect) even named him state budget director.

[Human Snorenado]

The ACTUAL PROBLEM is that everything that led up to the crisis in 2008 was legal. 100% legal.

(Image removed from quote.)

robo-signing scandal
racially predatory loans
faulty foreclosures

Symptoms of the larger problem- over leveraging, making loans to idiots that don't need them and not caring because you sold their loan to a 2nd idiot, betting that that final instrument would fail, etc.

[Mandark]

To this day i'm still split on whether we should have let them tank or not.

no

[Phoenix Dark]

Art Pope (a Koch protege) did just that in NC. He basically owns the state now, the Governor (that he paid to elect) even named him state budget director.

Yup it seems way more financially effective than what they normally do. Think about all that money wasted throwing shit at Obama in 2012, or the various senate races they lost big time.

They're currently wasting money here on the senate race, trying to destroy Gary Peters. It doesn't take a genius to know Michigan is GOP fools gold, like Pennsylvania: races look close until Detroit and Philly are counted.

[Phoenix Dark]

It's more complicated than that. Yes they deserved to get fucked, but fucking them would fuck the global economy. I'm not willing to do that in order to "punish" banks. I'd rather do what Triumph suggested: make sure that the next time they pull this shit, they can be shitcanned without shitcanning everyone else.

[Steve Contra]

To this day i'm still split on whether we should have let them tank or not.

no

bububububu Iceland!

Of course you don't let them fail.  Jesus christ people.  Now we can debate how badly we fucked up in the aftermath reining them in, but come on brehs.

[Brehvolution]

Preserve the bank, but jail the banker. I don't think an institution would fail because a few managers got incarcerated.

[Phoenix Dark]

Preserve the bank, but jail the banker. I don't think an institution would fail because a few managers got incarcerated.

But re-election campaign funds would

[benjipwns]

but fucking them would fuck the global economy. I'm not willing to do that in order to "punish" banks. I'd rather do what Triumph suggested: make sure that the next time they pull this shit, they can be shitcanned without shitcanning everyone else.

Don't worry, this time you got to punish everyone to kick the can down the road so next time you can bail them out again to kick the can farther.

I mean unless you're willing to sacrifice the global economy when that time comes. When all they need is just a little more money to tide things over until the next paycheck, they're clean, honest.

[brob]

http://mpra.ub.uni-muenchen.de/52384/1/MPRA_paper_52384.pdf

Branko Milanovic's review of Piketty's book is pretty good. I dunno if this was linked earlier when y'all were on it.

[benjipwns]

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2014/05/20/chris_matthews_the_prospect_of_hillary_becoming_a_truly_great_president.html

CHRIS MATTHEWS: Let me finish tonight with the prospect of Hillary Clinton becoming not just the next president but a truly great president. Let me be the first to say that the elements are there: her political positioning, her talents and personality, the desires of the electorate and the manifest needs of this country. First the political positioning. Hillary is a notch and a half, I'd say, to the right of President Obama on foreign policy. I consider that the sweet spot.

A little tough, a little more for American involvement than Obama, but not too much. Not over there with the Republicans and their neo-con allies who want us at constant war with whoever happens to be thumbing their nose at us.

Second, there are her talents: hard work, experience, a willingness to work with Republicans. Indeed, a real feel for the political world and how it works. If she weren't a candidate I'm sure a lot of Republicans would be saying this. It's an established fact that people who work with her like her. She is, to paraphrase an old adversary, more than likable enough.

Third, the American people have had it up to here with the national politics that argues incessantly and gets nothing done. This damn gridlock. They want a president who can crack through the ice of do-nothing government. Someone who can bring down the walls that divide the two parties which discourage them from working together for the country.

Look at the list of potential presidents in both parties and tell me someone else besides Hillary Clinton who has the track record she does to carry on in this front. Fourth, for this country to compete with China and the rest of the world in this looming century, we need to find a leader who will inspire trust, trust to rebuild America. Trust with the money to do it. Trust to rebuild our immigration policy. Trust to bring harmony and hope at home and true enforcement at the border. That too requires trust.

Getting elected president alongside a Republican Congress would simply mean more gridlock, more anger and more defeat of American optimism and another decade of lost ground against our global competition. In other words, more nothing. To me the only strategy for Hillary Clinton to follow is to come into office with enough power propelled by a sizable majority of the popular vote in the mid-50s, for example, so she can do what Roosevelt did in the '30s what, Johnson did in the mid '60s to really change America for the better.

Only strategy huh, well, no problem then.

And what about the trust to slow the rise of the oceans and heal the planet?

[Brehvolution]

Link

Good luck with that. There is a large part of the GOP that believe their way is God's way. There isn't any negotiating with God's way.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

They say it's about God, but those people aren't Christians.

[close]

[Phoenix Dark]

If we're afraid of letting them fail because they're too essential to the economy, and we acknowledge that we'll  reach a point where we'll need to do this again, so......... Nationalize them? Geithner and them were talking about it.

Or we could just pass Glass-Steagall and once again separate commercial and investment banking.

[Mandark]

There is systemic risk because bankers know the government will bail them out in the future.

Also, there is obesity because people know Medicare will pay for their health problems in the future.

[benjipwns]

Or we could just pass Glass-Steagall and once again separate commercial and investment banking.

What exactly would have been prevented?

There is systemic risk because bankers know the government will bail them out in the future.

The government backing them up just helps prevent the systemic risk from going away because there's no consequences for not avoiding it.

[Phoenix Dark]

Likewise there would be no crime if criminals knew they'd be executed.

[Mandark]

Yup, and the HPV vaccine turns girls into sluts.

[benjipwns]

Sluts aren't malinvestment.

[Phoenix Dark]

Or we could just pass Glass-Steagall and once again separate commercial and investment banking.

What exactly would have been prevented?

No, I'm saying it would allow us to let the banks fail without putting the economy in peril. There would obviously be a market crash but at least regular people wouldn't lose their savings.

[Mandark]

If people weren't guaranteed access to emergency room care, they wouldn't drive drunk.

[Brehvolution]

If there wasn't a minimum wage, we would all be making $30/hour.

[Mandark]

Guys, are you picking up on my low opinion of simplistic narratives about moral hazard?  I wasn't sure if that was coming across.

[benjipwns]

No, I'm saying it would allow us to let the banks fail without putting the economy in peril. There would obviously be a market crash but at least regular people wouldn't lose their savings.

Hundreds of banks were allowed to fail. Why prop up certain banks by buying their shit assets or covering their losses instead of just potentially taking a bath via FDIC? I mean other than the obvious answer.

If people weren't guaranteed access to emergency room care, they wouldn't drive drunk.

These analogies would be more accurate if the "victims" in the first place were being given an endless supply of free alcohol and sports cars while being told they would be made whole or better by everyone else if anything bad went wrong as long as they claimed the world would end otherwise. Oh, plus instructions on driving while drunk. And encouragement to do so.

Or I suppose if they were a massive corporation with willing "public" servants who would help socialize the losses onto the actual victims.

[Phoenix Dark]

you can buy endless alcohol with an EBT card tho

[ToxicAdam]

I want to jump in and be a contrarian troll, but I can't even figure out what side everyone is on.

[Human Snorenado]

Let me be restate my position then- Jaime Dimon and Lloyd Blankfein should be publicly executed. Did that clear things up?

[Steve Contra]

Let me be restate my position then- Jaime Dimon and Lloyd Blankfein should be publicly executed. Did that clear things up?

You remember all the op-eds that were like "we should use this moment to fix the problem and not use the American justice simple for a show of revenge"?  And then neither of those things happened. 

[benjipwns]

My position is that Ron Paul should have the only legal tender in the world in a huge vault with a dollar sign on it and he gives it out as he wants. And all other forms of currency are outlawed.

Except dogecoin.

[Steve Contra]

I know that you're trying to joke, but that's 100% the actual position of libertarians.

[Mandark]

benj, you speaking from any particular knowledge of either the financial industry or the history of banking crises, or you just working from an intuitive understanding of incentives?

[Steve Contra]

The gay marriage ban in Pennsylvania was just struck down by this guy:

http://www.conservapedia.com/John_E._Jones_III

Judge Jones is a Republican judge from Pennsylvania, and was appointed by President George W. Bush[3] after being recommended by ultra-conservative and pro-life firebrand US Senator Rick Santorum.

Stay salty, Santorum

[Mandark]

Looks like he also ruled against the mandated teaching of creationism in public schools a few years ago, to boot.  Would he have had to be supported by both PA Senators in order to get confirmed?  I can never remember the rules for these home-state appointments.

[Phoenix Dark]

I knew Santorum was a liberal false flag.

[Phoenix Dark]

[benjipwns]

benj, you speaking from any particular knowledge of either the financial industry or the history of banking crises

What would you consider particular knowledge? I don't work or specialize in finance or banking if that's what you mean. (Nor am I Jewish.)

In any case, feel free to consider it intuitive since my argument is that if you have a whole bunch of ideas (that you might be getting incentive towards carrying out), being told to not worry about it going south because you'll be taken care of doesn't make you less likely to engage in those behaviors.

That essentially, in this instance, any smidgen of hesitance by the bad banks (since not all banks engaged in these things) was probably overwhelmed by the belief they could pull it off (with the backing they were getting) and that in the long odds they couldn't, it'd be worse case like with the Savings and Loans because of the size of the assets they were dealing with and who had oversight. Risk was essentially eliminated from corporate considerations because of policy.

And the evidence I've seen seems to confirm this because I dismiss anything that runs counter to my superior and unchanging viewpoint.

I don't consider it the source of the bad ideas though, no.

I know that you're trying to joke, but that's 100% the actual position of libertarians.

Mostly goldbugs and bitcoin fanatics unfortunately.

[Mandark]

being told to not worry about it going south because you'll be taken care of

When and how did this happen?  I haven't followed the reporting on the crisis run-up all that closely.

[benjipwns]

I cut this in half when I realized I was rambling off weirdly, so apologies if it got disjointed.

It seems implicit in government policy over the last 80 years or so. I imagine it was made explicit at a personal level. "Ownership Society!" All the desire to boost liquidity and back almost everything in sight regarding homes. It seems to me that when everything started to fall apart all of the incentives were entirely political and that the bailouts and non-prosecutions are based on mutual CYA. The same basic series of events went on with the Savings and Loans in terms of being the best thing ever until they weren't and you suddenly had a bunch of worthless assets. (Only those were too small, local and regional to gain protection, stupid deregulation.)

If you want to make the claim that the government intervening more in the financial industry wasn't an explicit given so there was no moral hazard component, that's fine and I'll take the criticism. I just contend that when operating with assets of this claimed size it's at minimum an unwritten assumption that you fuck up, you're getting bailed out. There's too many incentives for the government. Especially when it's invested a shit load of money/pensions into the same instruments. (And invested human capital in the people of those institutions.)

Also fair to note that I do have a unorthodox view of the economic/financial system, but you and everyone else already knows that.

EDIT: This reads like I'm blaming the government. I want to make clear that I'm not doing so solely, merely that banks and corporations are going to do dumb shit like this, the government (since I "get a say") in my opinion shouldn't be helping out.

[chronovore]

Hmmmm, I read through that Taibbi interview and here:

When people ask me what the solutions are to these problems, for me, the fastest shortcut to everything being cleaned up is disentangling the government from its unnatural support of these too-big-to-fail institutions, forcing them to sink or swim on their own in the real free market. I never would have imagined myself making that argument five or six years ago, but that’s the argument … These people, not only are they not being prosecuted, but they’re not subject to the normal forces of the market anymore, and in a way that enables them even more … If you were to force these companies to sink or swim on their own they’d be vaporized instantly.

Don't know about this. To this day i'm still split on whether we should have let them tank or not.

I am not an economist, but I would preferred to have them tank. All this horse shit about "don't regulate us! regulation is killing us!" and then where they've overreached and about to die, "save us! give us your moneys! we can't live without government moneys!" -- and these fucks have the gall to call out small-time unemployment/welfare players who account for what amount of tax money? Fffffuuuu....

The fact that these bankers not only avoided jail time but also managed to give themselves bonus checks made from tax money just makes me want to join a fucking militia which only targets bankers.

[Phoenix Dark]

    And in a surprising twist, the bill language specifies that only rural areas are to benefit in the future from funding requested by the administration this year to continue a modest summer demonstration program to help children from low-income households — both urban and rural — during those months when school meals are not available.

    Since 2010, the program has operated from an initial appropriation of $85 million, and the goal has been to test alternative approaches to distribute aid when schools are not in session. The White House asked for an additional $30 million to continue the effort, but the House bill provides $27 million for what’s described as an entirely new pilot program focused on rural areas only.

    Democrats were surprised to see urban children were excluded. And the GOP had some trouble explaining the history itself. But a spokeswoman confirmed that the intent of the bill is a pilot project in “rural areas” only.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/wtf--15

posted with no comment

[benjipwns]

In the case of WIC and white potatoes, the provision follows on strong lobbying by the industry which is hoping to win similar language Thursday when the full Senate Appropriations Committee is slated to consider its own version of the same agriculture bill.

The dollars at stake are less important than the prestige of being judged qualified for WIC, which is considered the premier nutrition program for the government.

For the industry, concerned that younger women have moved away from potatoes, gaining access to WIC is an important marketing tool. Just as strongly, critics worry that the end result will be to open the door to other special interests and wreck a long-standing commitment by Congress to let independent scientists decide what foods are most needed.

lol at that last sentence. This is the same body that started major nutrition policy based in part on the fad diet of a Senator's wife.

[Oblivion]

I've seen people blame things like the fed lowering interest rates and regulators for not keeping an eye on Wall Street shenanigans (this one is particularly amusing when it comes from conservatives), but wasn't the real problem that led to the financial crash the fact that banks were intentionally looking for people to sell mortgages to, even if they couldn't pay them back? And in many cases, didn't banks swindle those very same people, trying to encourage them to buying sub-prime mortgages? And then didn't they actually bet in the hopes that those very same sub-prime mortgages would fail?!

Assuming all of that is true, isn't it pretty clear that the blame for the financial crisis lies mostly with Wall Street?


edit: this video's pretty accurate, no?

[Great Rumbler]

1. Shove out as many loans as possible, even if the people getting the loans won't be able to pay them back
2. Bundle the bad loans with good loans and then scam people into buying the resulting financial instrument
3. Buy insurance against the loans failing
4. Suck up all those sweet government dollars when everything inevitably collapses

That's basically what happened.

[benjipwns]

2. Bundle the bad loans with good loans and then sell the resulting financial instrument to people who don't realize the risk

I think this one might be better with something along the lines of "while the risk was obscured" with the neutral and passive phrasing to not indict everyone.

[Brehvolution]

They also jacked up interest rates on variable rate loans to the point where people couldn't afford the payments and defaulted.

[benjipwns]

Well, actually, a lot of people had some of the same level of real estate success as he's had... 

[Joe Molotov]

Go bankrupt like Donald Trump, brehs.

[Dickie Dee]

Inherit your father's fortune like Donald Trump, brehs

[Steve Contra]

1. Shove out as many loans as possible, even if the people getting the loans won't be able to pay them back
2. Bundle the bad loans with good loans and then scam people into buying the resulting financial instrument
3. Buy insurance against the loans failing
4. Suck up all those sweet government dollars when everything inevitably collapses

That's basically what happened.

This is missing the very crucial step where the bundles of bad loans were then re-bundled into larger securities to ensure triple A ratings and making it much difficult to detremine exactly what the securities were comprised of.

[Phoenix Dark]

1. Shove out as many loans as possible, even if the people getting the loans won't be able to pay them back
2. Bundle the bad loans with good loans and then scam people into buying the resulting financial instrument
3. Buy insurance against the loans failing
4. Suck up all those sweet government dollars when everything inevitably collapses

That's basically what happened.

This is missing the very crucial step where the bundles of bad loans were then re-bundled into larger securities to ensure triple A ratings and making it much difficult to detremine exactly what the securities were comprised of.

sort of like those free games that are bundled with budget GPUs.

[Human Snorenado]

1. Shove out as many loans as possible, even if the people getting the loans won't be able to pay them back
2. Bundle the bad loans with good loans and then scam people into buying the resulting financial instrument
3. Buy insurance against the loans failing
4. Suck up all those sweet government dollars when everything inevitably collapses

That's basically what happened.

This is missing the very crucial step where the bundles of bad loans were then re-bundled into larger securities to ensure triple A ratings and making it much difficult to detremine exactly what the securities were comprised of.

sort of like those free games that are bundled with budget GPUs.

Or shitty indie humble bundles masquerading as actual games 

[Great Rumbler]

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) on Wednesday named 5 Democrats to the GOP-led select committee on Benghazi, announcing that her party will fully participate in the investigation.

The members:

Rep. Elijah E. Cummings (D-MD), Ranking Member, Committee on Oversight & Government Reform
Rep. Adam Smith (D-WA), Ranking Member, Armed Services Committee
Rep. Adam B. Schiff (D-CA), Committee on Appropriations (Subcommittee on State & Foreign Operations), Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence
Rep. Linda T. Sanchez (D-CA), Committee on Ways and Means (Subcommittee on Oversight)
Rep. Tammy Duckworth (D-IL), Armed Services Committee, Committee on Oversight & Government Reform

All aboard the impeachment train! Toot-toot!

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Cummings and Duckworth are good picks, though, they're not the types who will just lie down quietly and get steamrolled.

[close]

[benjipwns]

You guys ever go to a comic show and get a big sealed bag of random comics for like two bucks or whatever?

Used to get those as a kid at the twice yearly local shin-dig. Wound up with a whole shit load of 1960s era Batman issues. And somehow what seems like almost the entire run of the Alien Nation comic. And even more unbelievable garbage.

What I'm saying is why would you want to take away the joy of someone purchasing a package of securities and not knowing what's inside?

[Great Rumbler]

What if you opened the sealed bag of random comics and instead of comics there was a live scorpion inside?

[benjipwns]

What if you opened the sealed bag of random comics and instead of comics there was a live scorpion inside?

Free pet. And one you can use against your enemies.

[Brehvolution]

What if you opened the sealed bag of random comics and instead of comics there was a live scorpion inside?

Sometimes, you get the scorpion.

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) on Wednesday named 5 Democrats to the GOP-led select committee on Benghazi, announcing that her party will fully participate in the investigation.

The members:

Rep. Elijah E. Cummings (D-MD), Ranking Member, Committee on Oversight & Government Reform
Rep. Adam Smith (D-WA), Ranking Member, Armed Services Committee
Rep. Adam B. Schiff (D-CA), Committee on Appropriations (Subcommittee on State & Foreign Operations), Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence
Rep. Linda T. Sanchez (D-CA), Committee on Ways and Means (Subcommittee on Oversight)
Rep. Tammy Duckworth (D-IL), Armed Services Committee, Committee on Oversight & Government Reform

All aboard the impeachment train! Toot-toot!

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Cummings and Duckworth are good picks, though, they're not the types who will just lie down quietly and get steamrolled.

[close]

Awww, no Alan Grayson?