US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE

[benjipwns]

Define "doing better" or else.

[Am_I_Anonymous]

Define "doing better" or else.

Look at housing for instance. The economy was better. And 80's action movies ruled dude :-)

also



Or else what?

This?



oops



And we're done here.

[Phoenix Dark]

Actually the economy was pretty shitty during Reagan's first term, hence why some people draw parallels between it and Obama's first. The difference being we're now on the end turn of those 80s years - the people who entered the work force in the late 70s and 80s and leaving in masse.

Other difference being the economy was pretty great during Reagan's second term whereas it's still rather bleh now.

[Am_I_Anonymous]

Actually the economy was pretty shitty during Reagan's first term, hence why some people draw parallels between it and Obama's first. The difference being we're now on the end turn of those 80s years - the people who entered the work force in the late 70s and 80s and leaving in masse.

Other difference being the economy was pretty great during Reagan's second term whereas it's still rather bleh now.

Yes clearly the beginning of the recession was worse under Reagan. But he recovered well.  In addition I do not believe they counted minimum wage jobs as equivalent to middle class wages but I could be in error here.

Dat Fed funds rate

 

Oil

 

More?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterferrara/2011/05/05/reaganomics-vs-obamanomics-facts-and-figures/

 

[benjipwns]

Setting 1981 as your index is pretty good.

Anyway, we're all on average vastly better off now than the 1980's or ever before.

For example, Wikipedia is almost infinitely superior to World Book unless you need to prop up a table or something.

[Am_I_Anonymous]

Setting 1981 as your index is pretty good.

Anyway, we're all on average vastly better off now than the 1980's or ever before.

For example, Wikipedia is almost infinitely superior to World Book unless you need to prop up a table or something.

Better in tech? Sure

Better in anything else, let's review?

Job security: Reagan
Housing: LOL Reagan
Gas: Reagan
International Relations: reagan took down the USSR, obama once almost did some shit to ISIS
Free phones: Obama
Pizza for voting: Obama


Yeah, it's pretty close.

[benjipwns]

Better in every single form of wealth/capital/information. And that's with all the hurdles we've burdened ourselves with.

The USSR collapsed because Communism doesn't work because it suppresses information, (sorry Kara and Broseidon we can still smash the state together though!) especially when it's run by a bureaucracy that makes the U.S. Governments look nimble and flexible.

[Am_I_Anonymous]

Better in every single form of wealth/capital/information. And that's with all the hurdles we've burdened ourselves with.

The USSR collapsed because Communism doesn't work because it suppresses information, (sorry Kara and Broseidon we can still smash the state together though!) especially when it's run by a bureaucracy that makes the U.S. Governments look nimble and flexible.

Where do you figure our housing collapse in there? Or the fact that we are losing 50k+ plus a year jobs and replacing them with part time employment?

"Take down this Wall"

That shit happened, I was there (watching TV as a young buck with dad, who had tears in his eyes).

Just saying, you can say what you want, but I was there, and poor, and we still had food on the table and enough money for clothes. And people were PROUD of this country rather than being some SJW's making us so goddamn PC we look like the Soviet Union.

[Great Rumbler]

During Reagan's recovery we spent like drunken sailors, though, whereas in Obama's recovery we gotten tighten our belts and cut the federal debt.

[Am_I_Anonymous]

During Reagan's recovery we spent like drunken sailors, though, whereas in Obama's recovery we gotten tighten our belts and cut the federal debt.

Yes he spent the money on the people. Your point?

Also no bullshit drawn out wars under Reagan's shift. I mean did we need to do Panama like we did? Hell no.

But the Iran crisis....handled like a fucking boss.

[Great Rumbler]

During Reagan's recovery we spent like drunken sailors, though, whereas in Obama's recovery we gotten tighten our belts and cut the federal debt.

Yes he spent the money on the people. Your point?

I mean, yeah, that's kind of my point. The government spent a ton of money during the 80's and that probably helped out quite a bit during the recovery. The 00's and 10's get lots of austerity cuts and sharply reduced taxes on the wealthy, though, and, well, you see where that's gotten us so far.

[Am_I_Anonymous]

During Reagan's recovery we spent like drunken sailors, though, whereas in Obama's recovery we gotten tighten our belts and cut the federal debt.

Yes he spent the money on the people. Your point?

I mean, yeah, that's kind of my point. The government spent a ton of money during the 80's and that probably helped out quite a bit during the recovery. The 00's and 10's get lots of austerity cuts and sharply reduced taxes on the wealthy, though, and, well, you see where that's gotten us so far.

See I'm not for reducing taxes on the wealthy. Everyone should pay there share. That's where I differ from my party.

[benjipwns]

Where do you figure our housing collapse in there?

Basic bubble.

Or the fact that we are losing 50k+ plus a year jobs and replacing them with part time employment?

I'm sorry that the rest of the world has started to pull itself out of poverty.

"Take down this Wall"

That shit happened, I was there

Yes, Ronald Reagan gave one of many speeches. It's less commonly remembered as another one where he calls for the elimination of nuclear weapons.

But the Iran crisis....handled like a fucking boss.

Plus we got to go looking for chemical weapons again later.

[CatsCatsCats]

Lol Reagan stanning? I get why people aren't into your politics now

[Am_I_Anonymous]

Actually this is my favorite Reagan moment:

[Phoenix Dark]

During Reagan's recovery we spent like drunken sailors, though, whereas in Obama's recovery we gotten tighten our belts and cut the federal debt.

Yes he spent the money on the people. Your point?

I mean, yeah, that's kind of my point. The government spent a ton of money during the 80's and that probably helped out quite a bit during the recovery. The 00's and 10's get lots of austerity cuts and sharply reduced taxes on the wealthy, though, and, well, you see where that's gotten us so far.

See I'm not for reducing taxes on the wealthy. Everyone should pay there share. That's where I differ from my party.

AiA still my nicca

[Am_I_Anonymous]

Lol Reagan stanning? I get why people aren't into your politics now

Sincerely doubt you could argue it like Benji. Probably best for you to get back to football bro.

[Am_I_Anonymous]

For the record here's what I am for versus our normal republican

Gay marriage? I lack a fuck to give about this
Taxes: Everyone pay your share
Religion: Pass

Just for the record.

[jakefromstatefarm]

International Relations: reagan took down the USSR

breh...

[CatsCatsCats]

Lol Reagan stanning? I get why people aren't into your politics now

Sincerely doubt you could argue it like Benji. Probably best for you to get back to football bro.

benji is best in his class, that's not a fair benchmark!  :'(

[Am_I_Anonymous]

Lol Reagan stanning? I get why people aren't into your politics now

Sincerely doubt you could argue it like Benji. Probably best for you to get back to football bro.

benji is best in his class, that's not a fair benchmark!  :'(

I like Benji. Good bro.

[Steve Contra]

The free phones thing was started under Reagan, and expanded under Bush.   This is what you get for getting your news from

[Am_I_Anonymous]

International Relations: reagan took down the USSR

breh...

20 ish kid gonna tell the guy who was there what happened...breh




We outspent them militarily to the point where it broke their economy. Who spent that money breh?

[benjipwns]

The Soviets didn't even try to keep up, their economy was already broken long before. Reagan's bullshit was just like JFK's lying about the missile gap. Reason to hand wave away good budgeting and increase spending and debt with no gain. (And new toys to play with on other peoples property.)

[Am_I_Anonymous]

The Soviets didn't even try to keep up, their economy was already broken long before. Reagan's bullshit was just like JFK's lying about the missile gap. Reason to hand wave away good budgeting and increase spending and debt with no gain. (And new toys to play with on other peoples property.)

The Cold War didn't matter then, this is what you're saying? Honestly?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_policy_of_the_Ronald_Reagan_administration

When Reagan visited Moscow, he was viewed as a celebrity by the Soviets. A journalist asked the president if he still considered the Soviet Union the evil empire. "No," he replied, "I was talking about another time, another era."[21]

Benji does not believe, but the soviets did.

[jakefromstatefarm]

International Relations: reagan took down the USSR

breh...

20 ish kid gonna tell the guy who was there what happened...breh




We outspent them militarily to the point where it broke their economy. Who spent that money breh?

point being, your argument gives way too much credit to a single policy from a single administration half way across the world. There had been nascent nationalist movements in virtually all of the eastern bloc states for centuries; the desire for statehood in imperially occupied territories like Poland, Lithuania, and Estonia were significantly contributing factors in the soviet union's imminent collapse. There's no doubt that pressure by the west was a catalyst in its fall, but limiting it to just that doesn't give any agency to the people who actually played a part within the actual borders of the Soviet Union.

[Am_I_Anonymous]

International Relations: reagan took down the USSR

breh...

20 ish kid gonna tell the guy who was there what happened...breh




We outspent them militarily to the point where it broke their economy. Who spent that money breh?

point being, your argument gives way too much credit to a single policy from a single administration half way across the world. There had been nascent nationalist movements in virtually all of the eastern bloc states for centuries; the desire for statehood in imperially occupied territories like Poland, Lithuania, and Estonia were significantly contributing factors in the soviet union's imminent collapse. There's no doubt that pressure byon the westpeople was athe catalyst in its fall, but limiting it to just that doesn't give any agency to the people who actually played a part within the actual borders of the Soviet Union.

Ahem

In her eulogy to Ronald Reagan at his funeral, former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, whom Reagan worked very closely with during his tenure in office, said, "Others hoped, at best, for an uneasy cohabitation with the Soviet Union; he won the Cold War — not only without firing a shot, but also by inviting enemies out of their fortress and turning them into friends.... Yes, he did not shrink from denouncing Moscow's 'evil empire.' But he realized that a man of goodwill might nonetheless emerge from within its dark corridors. So the President resisted Soviet expansion and pressed down on Soviet weakness at every point until the day came when communism began to collapse beneath the combined weight of these pressures and its own failures. And when a man of goodwill did emerge from the ruins, President Reagan stepped forward to shake his hand and to offer sincere cooperation."

I'll take her word for it.

[Human Snorenado]

What a bunch of horseshit.

Everyone knows Rocky ended Communism.

[benjipwns]

Got another one of those voter report cards today, shame they only went back two general elections since there were two more skipped before that:

[Am_I_Anonymous]

 

[Himu]

I also can't cosign Nixon due to the war on drugs. He helped desegregate but he also played a huge part in destroying our communities.

[Am_I_Anonymous]

I also can't cosign Nixon due to the war on drugs. He helped desegregate but he also played a huge part in destroying our communities.

I'm iffy on it, because I do believe every good thing he did during that time caused a bad thing.

[Human Snorenado]

On the real though, I think that the "Reagan ended communism" narrative is emblematic of a larger, generalized need for conservatives to have simple explanations for complex shit. "Reagan outspent them and told him to 'tear down that wall!' That's gotta be it!"

Life is complicated, there's a lot of shit that contributed to the downfall of the USSR.

[Am_I_Anonymous]

On the real though, I think that the "Reagan ended communism" narrative is emblematic of a larger, generalized need for conservatives to have simple explanations for complex shit. "Reagan outspent them and told him to 'tear down that wall!' That's gotta be it!"

Life is complicated, there's a lot of shit that contributed to the downfall of the USSR.

I understand this. But he was the focus and the face, to say he wasn't is absurd. And the grace he showed to Russia after the collapse will never be repeated. First one to pick them up when they fell.

And I would counter it's very Liberal to deny any grace towards a conservative regardless if he made your life better or not. Get over that shit bro. I have no issues supporting Clinton on things he did well.


LBJ though 

[benjipwns]

Though at least these guys are apparently helping pay for it:


EDIT: lol just noticed they misspelled Washington at the end of the video

[jakefromstatefarm]

Alright, ignoring the ostensible partisanship of that snip, I'll take the word of scholarly literature on the subject.

[ The idea that someone like Reagan or Thatcher had something to do with the wall coming down is pretty laughable. You probably had just as much to do with the fall of the wall and the subsequent fall of communism, Nomadfire. In fact, the only book I can think of that really tries to give serious, academic credence to the Reagan theory is written by Paul Kengor. So, take that as you will. There are several big contributors, though: the first, if you believe Alexei Yurchak, is the transistor radio, which allowed every day Soviet citizens to pick up radio signals coming from the West (in Everything Was Forever, there's an excellent section about people actually learning jazz by listening to one of the BBC broadcasters). Then there's the fact that glastnost' allowed people further glimpses into the West by loosening the controls on what could and could not be watched on television. All of a sudden, people were seeing shows on TV where American families had houses with five or six rooms and two or three cars a piece. It really accentuated the lie they'd been told about communism being more prosperous than capitalism. Each satellite can find its own reason. Poland, for example. had Solidarity. Yes, Jaruzelski declares martial law, but that doesn't end Solidarity. Shana Penn has an... uh, acceptable book called Solidarity's Secret, in which she examines the women that kept Solidarity and its newspapers going during martial law. Then again, if you trust someone like Konstantin Pleshakov more, he suggests in There is no Freedom Without Bread that the Pope was a prime mover in the destruction of communism within Poland. The end of communism in the satellites is like a choose your own adventure story. There is no shortage of "reasons." Stephen Kotkin's Armageddon Averted covers the end of the Soviet Union really well; he suggests that it wasn't even necessarily Gorbachev, either, but that a lot of it had to do with economics. If the oil crisis hadn't happened in the late 1970s, the Soviet Union might have become fiscally insolvent, and now the debate would rage about how much credit to give Jimmy Carter for defeating communism. Jimmy Carter! Imagine!

[Am_I_Anonymous]

Alright, ignoring the ostensible partisanship of that snip, I'll take the word of scholarly literature on the subject.

[ The idea that someone like Reagan or Thatcher had something to do with the wall coming down is pretty laughable. You probably had just as much to do with the fall of the wall and the subsequent fall of communism, Nomadfire. In fact, the only book I can think of that really tries to give serious, academic credence to the Reagan theory is written by Paul Kengor. So, take that as you will. There are several big contributors, though: the first, if you believe Alexei Yurchak, is the transistor radio, which allowed every day Soviet citizens to pick up radio signals coming from the West (in Everything Was Forever, there's an excellent section about people actually learning jazz by listening to one of the BBC broadcasters). Then there's the fact that glastnost' allowed people further glimpses into the West by loosening the controls on what could and could not be watched on television. All of a sudden, people were seeing shows on TV where American families had houses with five or six rooms and two or three cars a piece. It really accentuated the lie they'd been told about communism being more prosperous than capitalism. Each satellite can find its own reason. Poland, for example. had Solidarity. Yes, Jaruzelski declares martial law, but that doesn't end Solidarity. Shana Penn has an... uh, acceptable book called Solidarity's Secret, in which she examines the women that kept Solidarity and its newspapers going during martial law. Then again, if you trust someone like Konstantin Pleshakov more, he suggests in There is no Freedom Without Bread that the Pope was a prime mover in the destruction of communism within Poland. The end of communism in the satellites is like a choose your own adventure story. There is no shortage of "reasons." Stephen Kotkin's Armageddon Averted covers the end of the Soviet Union really well; he suggests that it wasn't even necessarily Gorbachev, either, but that a lot of it had to do with economics. If the oil crisis hadn't happened in the late 1970s, the Soviet Union might have become fiscally insolvent, and now the debate would rage about how much credit to give Jimmy Carter for defeating communism. Jimmy Carter! Imagine!

Clearly the person who wrote this had no political affiliation, nope, clearly pure as the driven snow this guy.

[Human Snorenado]

Giving Ronald Reagan credit for the fall of the Soviet union is akin to giving Ronald McDonald credit for the delicious McFlurry imo. Reagan's best talents were as a spokesman, I'm not gonna deny that. But as far as a concrete policy developer? Nope, not buying it. He had some smart people working for him, but also a bunch of dumb ones and some absolutely criminal ones.

But be honest- how would you feel if, say for example, people in Obummer's administration sold weapons to Iran to fund Venezuelan rebels or some shit? Prooooooobably call him an incompetent, out of touch sad excuse for a "leader" at best, and more likely howl for his impeachment.

[Brehvolution]

Lots of fun stuff about raygun.

[Am_I_Anonymous]

Giving Ronald Reagan credit for the fall of the Soviet union is akin to giving Ronald McDonald credit for the delicious McFlurry imo. Reagan's best talents were as a spokesman, I'm not gonna deny that. But as far as a concrete policy developer? Nope, not buying it. He had some smart people working for him, but also a bunch of dumb ones and some absolutely criminal ones.

But be honest- how would you feel if, say for example, people in Obummer's administration sold weapons to Iran to fund Venezuelan rebels or some shit? Prooooooobably call him an incompetent, out of touch sad excuse for a "leader" at best, and more likely howl for his impeachment.

He's selling weapons to a lot of countries bro. Every president does.

[Human Snorenado]

Let me rephrase that- selling weapons to a country that Congress explicitly told him NOT TO to fund a group of rebels Congress explicitly told him NOT TO.

Also, don't say anything bad about Israel!

[Am_I_Anonymous]

Lots of fun stuff about raygun.

Better stuff about you.

[Am_I_Anonymous]

Let me rephrase that- selling weapons to a country that Congress explicitly told him NOT TO to fund a group of rebels Congress explicitly told him NOT TO.

Also, don't say anything bad about Israel!

Oh yeah he did that. No doubt. He wasn't Jesus bro. I think you guys think I have a Reagan poster above my bed. I simply give credit where credit is due.

[Am_I_Anonymous]

Let me rephrase that- selling weapons to a country that Congress explicitly told him NOT TO to fund a group of rebels Congress explicitly told him NOT TO.

Also, don't say anything bad about Israel!

Dude I'm a conservative,

I  Israel

[Dickie Dee]

Giving Ronald Reagan credit for the fall of the Soviet union is akin to giving Ronald McDonald credit for the delicious McFlurry imo. Reagan's best talents were as a spokesman, I'm not gonna deny that. But as far as a concrete policy developer? Nope, not buying it. He had some smart people working for him, but also a bunch of dumb ones and some absolutely criminal ones.

But be honest- how would you feel if, say for example, people in Obummer's administration sold weapons to Iran to fund Venezuelan rebels or some shit? Prooooooobably call him an incompetent, out of touch sad excuse for a "leader" at best, and more likely howl for his impeachment.

He's selling weapons to a lot of countries bro. Every president does.

[jakefromstatefarm]

[qquote
Clearly the person who wrote this had no political affiliation, nope, clearly pure as the driven snow this guy.
[/quote]you're right, that can't be ignored. The salient point here is that very little academic literature lends credence to thethe Reagan killied communism theory because attributingI one factor in a system with countless moving parts is disingenuous and reductive.

[Am_I_Anonymous]

Giving Ronald Reagan credit for the fall of the Soviet union is akin to giving Ronald McDonald credit for the delicious McFlurry imo. Reagan's best talents were as a spokesman, I'm not gonna deny that. But as far as a concrete policy developer? Nope, not buying it. He had some smart people working for him, but also a bunch of dumb ones and some absolutely criminal ones.

But be honest- how would you feel if, say for example, people in Obummer's administration sold weapons to Iran to fund Venezuelan rebels or some shit? Prooooooobably call him an incompetent, out of touch sad excuse for a "leader" at best, and more likely howl for his impeachment.

He's selling weapons to a lot of countries bro. Every president does.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/critics-slam-obama-administration-hiding-massive-saudi-arms/story?id=12192558

 

[Himu]

Fuck Reagan.

[benjipwns]

The Red Army was astonished at the living standards of 1930-40's Eastern Europe when they were raping and pillaging it, the Kitchen Debate was in the 1950's, by the 1970's the Soviet elite themselves were admitting shit was all fucked up and Brezhnev was senile. That's around the time they didn't make any toothbrushes in the entire Union because somebody forgot to put it in the Plan. The Soviet economy had already fully collapsed by the late 1970's. They were being shown up in total consumer goods by lesser Warsaw Bloc nations ffs. The numbers for production were made up and nobody knew the truth about anything in the entire nation, worse than under Stalin because Stalin would kill you when he found out, Brezhnev would give himself another medal. Skimming off the top was even more prevalent without the..."enforcement" mechanisms the Soviets had previous.

One of Reagan's favorite jokes: "they pretend to pay us and we pretend to work."

[Am_I_Anonymous]

Giving Ronald Reagan credit for the fall of the Soviet union is akin to giving Ronald McDonald credit for the delicious McFlurry imo. Reagan's best talents were as a spokesman, I'm not gonna deny that. But as far as a concrete policy developer? Nope, not buying it. He had some smart people working for him, but also a bunch of dumb ones and some absolutely criminal ones.

But be honest- how would you feel if, say for example, people in Obummer's administration sold weapons to Iran to fund Venezuelan rebels or some shit? Prooooooobably call him an incompetent, out of touch sad excuse for a "leader" at best, and more likely howl for his impeachment.

He's selling weapons to a lot of countries bro. Every president does.

Valid for you too

[benjipwns]

Reagan's best talents were as a spokesman, I'm not gonna deny that. But as far as a concrete policy developer? Nope, not buying it. He had some smart people working for him, but also a bunch of dumb ones and some absolutely criminal ones.

Howard Baker and Colin Powell among other "more senior/serious advisers" told Reagan to take "tear down this wall" out of the speech because it was "unpresidential" and could only upset the delicate realpolitik of Soviet relations. He overruled them because it was "the best line in the speech."

In some regards Reagan really was the best modern President considering how much of it (for the singular individual who is President) is show.

[sarslip]

adam corolla's career trajectory 

[Brehvolution]

Lots of fun stuff about raygun.

Better stuff about you.

It's ok bud, I'd be mad if I was a con too.

[Am_I_Anonymous]

Didn't watch. I like Carlin so I'm gonna leave it that way.

 

[benjipwns]

adam corolla's career trajectory 

But...Catch A Contractor...

(And his earlier remodeling type shows. Wish CAC would show more of that plus the damage and less blatantly shifty looking guys going "well, um, I was gonna come back but I got Ebola" or whatever.)

[sarslip]

Didn't watch. I like Carlin so I'm gonna leave it that way.

[benjipwns]

Didn't watch. I like Carlin so I'm gonna leave it that way.

 

Based on where you say you disagree with the GOP, I think you'd be fine with most of it. It's pretty basic Carlin First Amendment stuff, holding criminals responsible, hypocrisy, etc.

Cristóbal Colón7 months ago
 
Poor George Carlin, once a funny man, then turned into a GOD HATING Atheist, that spent his later years attacking anything and everything attached to God. Nice he never talked about the dozens of political death associated with LBJ or Billy Bob Clinton. No, he was purely after attacking anyone or anything that had perceived ties to God. Oh and a liar as well, only a handful of Teamster Locals supported Bush. He may have been comic genius in the 1970's and early 80's, but once you go political and anti-God you eliminate at least 80 percent of your audience. BIH Georgie.  FYI - Hinkley is NOT a free man, he is allowed to leave to visit his mom.

Hacim Llih via Google+2 months ago
 
#HilariousTRUTH
"This country was founded by #SLAVEowners who wanted TO BE FREE!?" USA's 'Sir' #GeorgeCarlin (Too eerily apropos for my #PROUDCherokee, #NativeREALAmericans #GreatForefathersMyASS rants! #JustSayin ;]])

#TRUTHbeTOLD #gopFAILEDagenda #TeaBaggers #FACTSonlyPLEASE #FIREtheGOP #ReligionPOISONSeverything #godISimaginary

[ToxicAdam]

Geography can skew perceptions. In the Rust Belt, the early 80's were the death knell for many cities - communities.  Whereas in 2008, property values weren't inflated enough to really have such a dramatic effect on consumer spending, although joblessness was bad, it was nowhere near the mass layoffs and plant closings that happened in the early 80's.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/21/business/economy/21leonhardt.html?_r=0


<That link wasn't to prove that it was worse (overall), but just to reconfirm how bad it was in the Rust Belt in the early 80's.>

[Am_I_Anonymous]

Well written.


I am in favor of trickle down economics.

 

[Am_I_Anonymous]

Begich suddenly up, while Nunn is suddenly tied. I can't take this shit.

I wouldn't even mind a GOP majority if anyone but McConnell could be the majority leader.

Could not agree more. We are fumble-fucking most of our economic necessities right now so poorly it's akin to a 6 year old trying to balance a cheque-book. We definitely need a new path.