Author Topic: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE  (Read 2656064 times)

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Shadow Mod

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In case you forgot how gross Huckabee is..

http://time.com/3999799/mike-huckabee-abortion-rape/

Quote
GOP presidential candidate and former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee said that he supports the decision to deny an abortion to a 10-year-old rape victim in Paraguay.

HyperZoneWasAwesome

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whoa, whoa, whoa, Whoa.

I try to stay out of these sort of unsolvable 'chicken-or-egg' moral arguments. How many people have ever been swayed by so much keyboard prattling? But here I gotta draw a line.
The 10 year old's in good condition.  The newborn's in good condition.  The likely rapist is in jail awaiting trial. 

Given the situation, there really wasn't a more ideal resolution. 

And if you're still all that sore about it, I suppose you could just pay someone to kill the baby; it's not like the act is any different now than a few weeks ago.
Nobody could have known that delivering that child wouldn't have killed her. That child's health was put at risk, at high risk to preserve the life of her fetus, a fetus that could have developed any sort of life threatening problems to itself anyway due to the extreme young age of its mother.

If that kid was dead, and the baby lived could you still say that? Or if the child and her baby died somewhere along the way could you. Just because they're both healthy now, well, that's just pure frigging luck it turned out that way. There was a chance, a really good chance, that things could have gone sideways very badly for both of them. I don't personally find a dice roll to be acceptable in making decisions over the life a person.

I'm just saying I think there was a pretty strong moral argument that this 10-year-old-girl should not have been forced to undergo the high risk to her own health and livelyhood just to deliver a baby that likely would have had problematic odds anyway. That's massively effed up.

Joe Molotov

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In case you forgot how gross Huckabee is..

http://time.com/3999799/mike-huckabee-abortion-rape/

Quote
GOP presidential candidate and former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee said that he supports the decision to deny an abortion to a 10-year-old rape victim in Paraguay.

No, I didn't forget how shitty and inhumane you are.



The 10 year old's in good condition.  The newborn's in good condition.  The likely rapist is in jail awaiting trial. 

Given the situation, there really wasn't a more ideal resolution. 

And if you're still all that sore about it, I suppose you could just pay someone to kill the baby; it's not like the act is any different now than a few weeks ago.

Yeah, we've all read Evangelium Vitae, but how do you feel about it also condemning capital punishment?
©@©™

Shadow Mod

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I'm sure a 10 year old being raped, getting pregnant and being forced to stay that way, then birth a baby, is in "good condition" now.

Ideal solution.

 ::)

CatsCatsCats

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Seriously, JD? A 10 year old girl's life being put at risk and forcing that 10 year old girl to endure the extreme mental and physical stress of carrying a child that was a direct result of a violent crime is okay with you? I would think you, who supports individual rights, who seeks to strip humanity of those who commit crimes, could see this baby as an illegal invader to this poor young girl and devoid of rights by your own standards. Do you just not think women or in this case very young girls have any right over their own bodies? It seems you view the female gender as enslaved by reproduction

Shadow Mod

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I love how anti-abortionists like JD are always yelling child this, child that, then think a raped child should be forced to undergo a pregnancy and a birth.

 :comeon

Mupepe

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If she didn't want to have a child she should have not gotten raped.  Simple as that.  Another problem that's solved with more guns.

Broseidon

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As someone who values freedom and individual liberty, I don't think it's right that the state can tell people what to do with their own bodies :wag

spoiler (click to show/hide)
Besides if the unborn person wants to survive then it should do so in a situation where it isn't being a parasite on the life and body of another person against that person's will. Just like every other human being, the statist false concept of "society" doesn't owe it a living
[close]
bent

Phoenix Dark

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Maybe fetuses wouldn't be aborted if they exercised their second amendment rights.
010

Van Cruncheon

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why are humoring a person whose weird dogma assumes that a unique human dna combination = a human life?

i mean, a corpse is a collection of unique human dna. should we preserve corpses in anticipation of the time when science can clone them?

not everyone agrees that a zygote is a human, what with lacking many of the characteristics we ascribe to HUMAN life.

potentiality of an actual existence as a human is hardly a black and white issue. it's not a place for convenient and arbitrary dogma. me, i favor the well-being developed human organism over the quasi-religious sanctity of a "potential" human. go further than that, and it starts to smell like the usual garage around "sin"...

edit: removed redundancy. happy?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2015, 08:02:34 PM by Van Cruncheon »
duc

Van Cruncheon

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hey, and then there are those who can't even read. look, if a human to you is JUST a particular protein structure regardless of state, congratulations: you really HAVE avoided reading your entire life.
duc

Dickie Dee

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So JayDubya is content to sit behind his keyboard while people are being murdered on an industrial scale through IVF? How can he live with himself?
___

Van Cruncheon

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many of the cells in "dead" bodies have potentiality for life, or for mere existence in some state as an organism, at least as you define it. i can grow a living ear in auger. if i kill it, is it murder? are we going to color up your dogma by suggesting a certain level of "completeness" for a human?

your argument boils down to the POTENTIALITY of becoming human, regardless of whether the biochemical state of the organism lacks ANY of the characteristics we would classically assign to life as a human. me, you aren't a human until you can fear the loss of your life. that's when killing becomes murder.

duc

Van Cruncheon

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any standard IS arbitrary. morals are consensus, no matter how much you despise that. welcome to humanity, brah
duc

Mandark

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"A human" aka "a human being" is an organism of the species Homo sapiens.

I feel the way you use those terms interchangeably is a pretty telling microcosm of the way you elide the gap between biology* and morality/philosophy.


spoiler (click to show/hide)
*Keeping in mind that the definition of life, even within biological studies, is not a fact, but rather a concept.
[close]

Mandark

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Fisking?

FOH 2002 blogosphere.

Van Cruncheon

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well, what is this "science" if not irrefutable proof of divine intent and anthrocentrism, he wonders before pissing his pants

somehow i suspect this is going to lead into jaydubya's assertion of inherent rights and some tortured misappropriation of scientific terms and/or naive insistence on "objective" terminology to justify it
duc

Mandark

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So there's no difference between biology and morality/philosophy?

Whaaaaaa?

Van Cruncheon

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is a homo sapiens without an arm a human? how about one without a brain? or is just a brain?

hell, a zygote hardly has anything approximating a complete body (or a brain), and when you remove it from its mother, it dies

and bro, you've been calling everyone who suggests abortion scenarios "murderers" so i got NO idea where th' fuck yer going with this
duc

Human Snorenado

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well, what is this "science" if not irrefutable proof of divine intent and anthrocentrism, he wonders before pissing his pants

somehow i suspect this is going to lead into jaydubya's assertion of inherent rights and some tortured misappropriation of scientific terms and/or naive insistence on "objective" terminology to justify it

Can we skip ahead to the part where inherent rights exist because they do? That's always my favorite part.
yar

Van Cruncheon

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i was trying to get him to that point but this business conduct video is ironically more interesting
duc

Shadow Mod

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is a homo sapiens without an arm a human? how about one without a brain? or is just a brain?

hell, a zygote hardly has anything approximating a complete body, and when you remove it from its mother, it dies

and bro, you've been calling everyone who suggests abortion scenarios "murderers" so i got NO idea where th' fuck yer going with this

It's weird that he won't call us murderers for non procreative sex though.

Van Cruncheon

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a skin cell is a potential human. or would you argue that cloning humans is fundamentally impossible? is scraping tissue cells acceptable until cloning a complete homo sapiens is possible, and then it becomes murder/killing?
duc

Kara

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So there's no difference between biology and morality/philosophy?

Whaaaaaa?

Can we talk about how Joe Morgan is, like, soooo dumb and how VORP is a meaningful statistic next? :hyper

E: sorry, meant to quote the post about Fisking.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2015, 08:40:27 PM by Vularai »

Van Cruncheon

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by choosing to have sex without procreation, we are ending the possibility of a human life! ALL SLUTS ARE KILLERS
duc

Mandark

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Jesus fisking Christ the "warblogs" of the early aughts are back.  Steven Den Beste, Charles Johnson, Josh Trevino, Glenn Reynolds, they are all rising out of their graves.

Van Cruncheon

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so again, you're all about the potentiality of "human life", and its current state of existence is meaningless? jesus, how many times do we spin this wheel?

this is all reading very religious to me
duc

Shadow Mod

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Why is disposing of something without any sort of consciousness and in its cellular stage more important than assisting in the alleviation of suffering of a person in the here and now?

Mandark

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Lemme rephrase what Drinky's getting at here.

Why should we set the moral boundary for human life (with all the rights/protections/etc. that entails) at a certain combination of DNA, rather than the presence of an active neurological system or some other criteria?

Shadow Mod

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I don't consider basically being a cluster of cells with no consciousness arbitrary, especially when compared with a thinking feeling individual outside the womb.

Like what does forcing a child to be pregnant and have a baby do other than impose needless suffering on that individual?

I'd say where you draw the line is the most arbitrary, before the life is even viable. Do you just think women/girls are some kind of creature that's in servitude to having babies against their will? Is that all we are? Really? And we're the villains in all this?

Mandark

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If all the criteria are arbitrary, dismiss the criteria and go with when you have a human life, as is scientifically the case from the moment the organism's lifespan begins.

You never did explain to us how the state of human life was scientifically determined.

I imagine this would have been a very famous series of experiments, since it pinpointed such an important phenomenon.

Shadow Mod

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A human being by your definition has died in me a couple times already I'm sure. Fertilized embryos failing to implant and all.

 :yeshrug

Shadow Mod

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What's "natural" to humans?

Phoenix Dark

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Quote
Obama's Iran nuclear deal rhetoric troubles American Jews

Washington (CNN)Some prominent members of the American Jewish community are increasingly worried that the rhetoric the Obama administration is using to defend the Iran deal could fuel a backlash against Jews.

In recent days, President Barack Obama has repeatedly charged that opponents of the deal are pushing for war with Iran as they did in Iraq and has decried the well-funded lobbying campaign behind them.

The White House says Obama is simply offering what he regards as a stark truth about the options facing lawmakers and what he's up against.

But American Jewish organizations -- who maintain the President himself isn't intentionally fueling stereotypes -- say the themes concern their members, who are sensitive to any suggestion of Jews' warmongering or placing ties to Israel over the interests of the United States.

Abraham Foxman, until recently the head of the Anti-Defamation League, which combats racism and anti-Semitism, said the language Obama is using could end up "fueling and legitimizing anti-Semitic stereotypes out there that Jews are warmongers."

Quote
"The lobbying that is taking place on the other side is fierce, it is well-financed, it is relentless," he told them. "And in the absence of your voices, you are going to see the same array of forces that got us into the Iraq War, leading to a situation in which we forgo a historic opportunity and we are back on the path of potential military conflict."

Quote
"I know the President, I've heard him, I've met him. I don't think any of it is intentional," he said. But he added, "Some of us in the community are troubled the messaging will be used and abused by bigots."
http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/10/politics/jewish-concern-obama-rhetoric-iran-nuclear-deal/

:snoop you gotta be shitting me

Mandark explain
 :bolo
010

Mandark

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lol abe foxman

Third subhead: "American Jews support deal"

Also good to hear from Republican Jewish Coalition.  Though they're probably still just pissy since the ONE Jewish Republican member of Congress got primaried, so I'll let them vent.


edit: Upon further research, Lee Zelding of Nevada has picked up the torch from Eric Cantor.  I retract my statement as the GOP still has one Jewish member of the House.  THE DREAM IS ALIVE.

Great Rumbler

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So JayDubya is content to sit behind his keyboard while people are being murdered on an industrial scale through IVF? How can he live with himself?

Among people disinclined to approve of either, you'd probably get a more visceral response asking them about Obamacare.
dog

Van Cruncheon

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all criteria ARE arbitrary. cultures endlessly negotiate and re-negotiate ALL morals, and the majority accedes to them -- and the cultures change thusly. some compromises sit better than others; your desire for an absolute is an abdication of your HUMAN responsibility to evaluate context. we take lives for all sorts of reasons our culture justifies and with which we feel quite okay about collectively: self-defense, war, punishment. your semantic absolutism re human life is just another bid in the negotiations, and one many people aren't buying in the slightest.

if a mother is threatened with death by her unborn child, is it self-defense to terminate the preganancy?  what if a mother is *merely* threatened with suffering? i can spin off permutations on these examples all day, while you fisk hoping to find some sense of security in an absolute answer.

much of what you say leads to an appeal to a nameless, perfect authority; or to some unproven inherent quality invested in a definition of "human" that seems very limited. what it means to be human will be endlessly negotiated; and if that seems arbitrary to you, maybe you aren't good at the give-and-take required for participation.

some of us understand that there are no absolutes; that every social decision in life requires context; and that some measure of equitable, moral practice must be found in nuance and compromise. dogma, on the other hand, profanes thought; and the presumption of absolute moral answers strips us all of our earned experience. it's the answer of terrified children who can't look LIFE in the eye, confront the fear of uncertainty, and say "we can only pay attention and do our best."

human existence is negotiation. some plea with hoped-for higher powers; some assert the privilege of an assumed rationality; and others still observe and consider before bidding in humility.

personally, i choose the permissiveness of doubt.

your call, broseph.
duc

Dickie Dee

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If all the criteria are arbitrary, dismiss the criteria and go with when you have a human life, as is scientifically the case from the moment the organism's lifespan begins.

You never did explain to us how the state of human life was scientifically determined.

I imagine this would have been a very famous series of experiments, since it pinpointed such an important phenomenon.

JayDubya is limply trying to craft out a non-religious argument against abortion.

The joke on him is that any person of faith's anti-abortion position is actually more epistemologically sound than his :neogaf
___

Kara

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Let's take the example of biology. You will find concepts with a classifying function, concepts with a differentiating function, and concepts with an analytical function: some of them enable us to characterise objects, for example that of "tissue"; others to isolate elements, like that of "hereditary feature"; others to fix relations, such as that of "reflex". There are at the same time elements which play a role in the discourse and in the internal rules of the reasoning practice. But there also exist "peripheral" notions, those by which scientific practice designates itself, differentiates itself in relation to other practices, delimits its domain of objects, and designates what it considers to be the totality of its future tasks. The notion of life played this role to some extent in biology during a certain period.

In the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, the notion of life was hardly used in studying nature: one classified natural beings, whether living or non-living, in a vast hierarchical tableau which went from minerals to man; the break between the minerals and the plants or animals was relatively undecided; epistemologically it was only important to fix their positions once and for all in an indisputable way.
   
At the end of the eighteenth century, the description and analysis of these natural beings showed, through the use of more highly perfected instruments and the latest techniques, an entire domain of objects, an entire field of relations and processes which have enabled us to define the specificity of biology in the knowledge of nature. Can one say that research into life has finally constituted itself in biological science? Has the concept of life been responsible for the organisation of biological knowledge? I don't think so. It seems to me more likely that the transformations of biological knowledge at the end of the eighteenth century, were demonstrated on one hand by a whole series of new concepts for use in scientific discourse and on the other hand gave rise to a notion like that of life which has enabled us to designate, to delimit and to situate a certain type of scientific discourse, among other things. I would say that the notion of life is not a scientific concept; it has been an epistemological indicator of which the classifying, delimiting and other functions had an effect on scientific discussions, and not on what they were talking about.


:ohhh

Brehvolution

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So there's no difference between biology and morality/philosophy?

Between "a human" and "a human being."

By denotation, there is no difference.  Human can also be an adjective, as semantic-minded pro-aborts like to point out, but that is not the same thing.  A human skin cell is not a human.

But a fetal skin cell is? Jaydub's entire argument if you read the last couple of pages is:  I (jayduh) determine who get rights(fetal cells) and who does not(rapist's victims). Jaydub expressed that his family business is none of yours yet every women's womb is his. That is all you really need to know about him. That is why he holds the minority opinion.

Sucks to be the minority Jaydub. It's not like the US treats minorities as 2nd class citizens. Right?

Jaydub - The champion of the rapist's unborn. A title which I'm sure you'll cherish.

Freak
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 12:29:26 AM by Brehvolution »
©ZH

Brehvolution

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I wasn't shitfaced, but I had a good buzz going. Sorry for the name calling.  :)
©ZH

nachobro

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This idiot seriously makes religious fundamentalist arguments against abortion look reasonable with all this bullshit he's spewing.  :lol

You need to be post-birth aborted, you're bringing down the collective intelligence of the world with this nonsense.

Brehvolution

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©ZH

Great Rumbler

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dog

Kara

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As thrilling as the meaning of life and the gallery of fools jockeying for the GOP nomination are, it's time to talk about mildly stimulating topics.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/7996104

To quote one of my favorite lines od Ilf and Petrov (when discussing tribal education on reservations), imperialism remains imperialism.

Phoenix Dark

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Trump's immigration platform includes changing the constitution to ban birthright citizenship. Scott Walker, Rand Paul, Rick Santorum, John Kasich, Bobby Jindal, and Lindsey Graham have now come out in support of the policy this week.

The death of the GOP continues.
010

Great Rumbler

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Makes Romney's "self-deportation" nonsense seem tame in comparison. If the GOP nominee gets more than 9% of the total Hispanic vote, I'll be shocked.
dog

brob

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https://twitter.com/BobbyJindal/status/633411114949345280

Trump could probably goad Jindal into eating at least one of his kids on camera imo

Mandark

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As thrilling as the meaning of life and the gallery of fools jockeying for the GOP nomination are, it's time to talk about mildly stimulating topics.

C'mon Kara.  You get plenty of space to banter about no1curr commie trivia without people trying to get the thread Back on Track.  You oughta be able to return the favor.

Great Rumbler

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https://twitter.com/BobbyJindal/status/633411114949345280

Trump could probably goad Jindal into eating at least one of his kids on camera imo

That's pretty funny coming from a guy whose parents came to America six months before he was born.
dog

Phoenix Dark

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Quote
And they may have to improve dramatically. For instance, in this analysis by Latino Decisions, under even the most absurdly optimistic scenario for Republicans — “that white voters consolidate behind the Republican Party at levels that were observed in 2014; that black participation and Democratic support returns to pre-Obama levels; and the expected growth in the Latino vote does not fully materialize” — the Republican candidate would need 42 percent of the Hispanic vote to win. As a point of comparison, according to exit polls Mitt Romney got 27 percent of Hispanic votes in 2012, while John McCain got 31 percent in 2008. Under a more likely scenario, with an electorate that votes something like in 2012 but with African-American turnout reduced, the Republican would need 47 percent of the Hispanic vote. In their worst-case scenario for Republicans — an electorate that votes identically to the way it did in 2012, but adjusted for changes in population — the Republican would need a stunning 52 percent of Hispanic votes.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2015/08/18/did-republicans-just-give-away-the-2016-election-by-raising-birthright-citizenship/

good luck
010

Kara

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As thrilling as the meaning of life and the gallery of fools jockeying for the GOP nomination are, it's time to talk about mildly stimulating topics.

C'mon Kara.  You get plenty of space to banter about no1curr commie trivia without people trying to get the thread Back on Track.  You oughta be able to return the favor.

I more or less stayed out of both of those abortion debacles and let y'all have your fun. :yeshrug

Just trying to return the thread to normalcy from its sidetrack into being PoliGAF. :american

Mandark

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tbh "normalcy" in this thread is benji quoting comment sections and nobody wanting to talk outside the usual three of four people and it kinda sucks.

Kara

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You forgot benji posting articles from the fringest of the fringe conservative websites. :bolo

Van Cruncheon

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yeah, step up the drama, people.

let's see, what noxious beliefs do i hold:

- i'm still really on the fence re gun control
- i try to be a decent ally but i really don't get "ableism" or other current fringe intersectionalism, largely because i still want to mock furries and spergs
- i laugh at racist jokes despite my horror (god i wish there were better jokes about white people)
- i want to support environmentalism but GOD trolling hipster urban ecowarriors is just so. fucking. delicious
- i still say "distinguished mentally-challenged fellow"
- i like miller lite better than any craft beer
- i think listicles are okay
- oh, and as a sop to jaydubya, i'm not comfortable with abortions after the first trimester, although unlike him, i'm willing to allow those that hafta make the brutal decision the opportunity to make their particular case and deal with their own consequences

LET'S GO, GENTS! open season on drinky!
-
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 06:50:31 PM by Van Cruncheon »
duc

Van Cruncheon

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i was watching old dave chappelle routines last night and the best jokes (read: the most cruel and painful and therefore the most likely to make horrible me laugh) are when all whites are characterized as ignorant hillfolk or meth-addled cultural desperados.

i don't think white people are quite as butthurt when you stereotype them as "uptight middle-class prissies" -- that's kinda our "fried chicken".
duc

CatsCatsCats

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Once I feared the venom of Drinky Crow, but now I only admire the consciousness of Van Cruncheon. Die a villain or survive long enough to become relatable  :goty

Kara

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On the one hand, gun proliferation is bad. Additionally so when the people who make them easier to get than medical treatment rarely have to face the consequences of their behavior (namely urban war zones that generally are a consequence of prohibition).

On the other hand, disarming minorities seems pretty shitty.

Van Cruncheon

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i got old, man. i got old. i can still summon the hate as a few facebook turds can attest, but man, it's gotta be some epic-level delusional dumb to get my juices flowin'. lightweights like jaydubya just inspire moderate concern. :-(
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 06:29:37 PM by Van Cruncheon »
duc

brawndolicious

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I think white people are the only racial group that are bored of themselves. Not much pride or self-loathing.