US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE

[Phoenix Dark]

- Just because Bernie Sanders marched with MLK doesn't mean he gives a shit about race, white lib friends. Fred Phelps was a civil rights activist. Bernie doesn't give a shit about race, and deserves to have been heckled by BLM protesters for his apathy and general generic "it's an economic problem, not a race problem" BROgressive/BROcialist stink. Bernie's response to BLM protesters essentially being,"I WON'T APOLOGIZE" rather than realizing people just want it addressed shows even further away from the movement this man is. And this is someone who plans on voting for him.

- Voting should be a holiday, and on for three days, preferably on a weekend (Friday, Saturday, Sunday). Felons should also have the ability to vote.

Sanders has a better record on civil rights issues than any candidate you'll start stanning in the next few months. Real talk. I preface this by saying I'm not a Sanders supporter (although I'll vote for him in the primary) but the treatment he's had to deal baffles me.

The dominant problem the black community faces is socioeconomic. Police brutality and the epidemic of violence in inner cities are symptoms of that - they are not the main problem. Sanders has been talking about that for quite some time. I'm not going to fault him for being an inarticulate fringe candidate. The record speaks for itself.

Sanders' is the one targeted for the exact reasons you just said: his record. Keep in mind, Republicans have also been targeted, but Sanders is especially targeted because of his record, meaning he's the most likely to do something about it. Ultimately, Bernie is a politician and politicians do not take up issues until they are prodded. Before, Bernie barely spoke of racial inequality or that police are specifically targeting our communities. You say that it's a socio-economical problem when many of these people killed in the past year, were not poor. You honestly sound like a college aged cac with that mess, sorry. What happened after they confronted Bernie? He has made an actual stance on the issue.

What does protesting Republicans do exactly? They don't give a fuck about us. Hilary? Her record is clear, but more than that, how could anyone hope to interrupt her when she has Blackwater security? Bernie Sanders, being the operating on a progressive platform (despite not even talking about the past years racial events) is the prime candidate and keep the discussion moving. Has it done that? Yes, it has. Now Bernie is meeting with them to talk about policy.

Do you really expect people to want to tackle poverty and stuff when people who are supposed to protect us are killing us? Really? You cannot be this naive or silly. You expect people to protest being poor when people justify killing us for being black? Out of here with that mess.

Between this and the "why is Janelle pro-black now?" you are looking mad suspect. 

1. Nowhere in my post do I suggest republicans or anyone else should be protested. But since you bring it up, one republican has been protested though, not "republicans" plural.

2. You bring up an anecdotal observation and then accuse me of sounding like a college kid? Stop it.

3. "Poverty and stuff" is the reason this situation exists. We're seeing the product of institutionalized ghettos. People put in a box with guns, drugs, limited public services, a lack of job/education opportunities, and a history of redlining to ensure most can't escape. Of course there's going to be an explosion of violence, which means there's going to be an increase in police presence. It's been designed that way. I want to talk about how that system can be dismantled. Police reforms are good and I support them, don't get me wrong, but they could essentially be window dressing as long as police are occupying impoverished war zones.

4. I wonder what policy they'll talk about, and I hope the conversation isn't as intellectually embarrassing as this shit.

[Phoenix Dark]

People are dying and this boy talking about shutting up, take it, and just hope it's rectified through economic changes despite specific decades like the 80's having good economies and things still being bad for people. Like fixing the economy is a one way ticket to ending white supremacy. Talking about "policing black people is a symptom of socio-economical circumstance" while ignoring that America's police were initially slave catchers, and this relationship has lasted over 150 years.

Coming up with this "why don't you blow on it?" mess when someone's been shot through the stomach.

I didn't know the 80s were a great time for the middle class or working poor. Seriously, you're essentially reciting talking points you haven't thought out. Again.

Black income rose in the 90s by about $8,000 during the economic boom. Poverty fell throughout the decade, including by 33% for black people. You cannot divorce the state of the economy from this shit. Let's be real.

[Boogie]

People are dying and this boy talking about shutting up, take it, and just hope it's rectified through economic changes despite specific decades like the 80's having good economies and things still being bad for people. Like fixing the economy is a one way ticket to ending white supremacy.

A society's police force is reflective of society itself.

If American police exhibit more violence/bad behaviour than, say, police in some other random country (let's say Canada), then it may be because police in America are policing in a more violent environment than police in Canada.

Homicide rate in Canada:  1.44 per 100k.
Homicide rate in USA: 4.5 per 100k

Apart from yes, encouraging reforms in policing, I don't see how saying that this is fundamentally a socioeconomic problem is so offensive.

America has a violent crime problem much worse than every other developed country.   Violent crime is a problem that is likely best solved by solving the underlying socioecnomic problems that a society/community faces (certainly no one on this site is going to suggest that we can solve violent crime rates in macro through harsher enforcement/imprisonment, amirite?).   But so long as America has a violent crime problem worse than any other developed country, those tasked with policing and responding in that environment are probably going to behave worse, on average, than those who have the luxury of policing in less-violent countries.

[Himu]

In the 80's when AIDS was rampant in the lgbt community, gays and lesbians held a mass protest at Wall Street and other institutions over the complete and utter silence from the government,  and in the Reagan administrations case, laughter. During those times, the crisis facing lgbt people was HIV and AIDS. Sure, there was mass poverty, threat to life and safety through being murdered by fellow citizens, but the main concern was AIDS, which the government gave two shits about. Protesting in mass numbers forced the governments hand. Your "economy is the main plight facing Black Americans" rings hollow. Put in another way, it almost sounds like,"socio-economic is the main issue facing lgbt people" in the light of my previous example, when no, the main concern from the community was AIDS. Socio-economics can wait, but what's more pressing are people dying in crazy numbers, especially at the hands of the very people sanctioned to protect us, while the government and politicians look on like literally nothing is happening.

Yet somehow, you expect people not to sound their voice, and simply be satisfied that someone is talking about change in socio-economic policy? Politcital candidates by their very jobs are supposed to handle the topical, yet you think that's a problem with black people demand similar treatment towards an issue that's killing us? How can I take you serious on this matter at all?

[jakefromstatefarm]

also, i have no idea where to draw an initial line, or where it should EVEN be drawn. i mean, at the end of the day: psych issues are pretty much the norm, at least in the tech sector. i don't like being pressured to "rank" disorders, but come ON.

yeah, part of the debate is that impairment is fluid and culturally informed. common rhetoric I've heard is that everyone is disabled provided they live long enough, but imo, a more accurate argument is that we all have physical/psychological limitations relative to each other and they shouldn't be used to justify exclusion. can't speak on the appropriation of rhetoric in der kulturkampf in the private sector, thank you based unemployment

[Himu]

People are dying and this boy talking about shutting up, take it, and just hope it's rectified through economic changes despite specific decades like the 80's having good economies and things still being bad for people. Like fixing the economy is a one way ticket to ending white supremacy. Talking about "policing black people is a symptom of socio-economical circumstance" while ignoring that America's police were initially slave catchers, and this relationship has lasted over 150 years.

Coming up with this "why don't you blow on it?" mess when someone's been shot through the stomach.

I didn't know the 80s were a great time for the middle class or working poor. Seriously, you're essentially reciting talking points you haven't thought out. Again.

Black income rose in the 90s by about $8,000 during the economic boom. Poverty fell throughout the decade, including by 33% for black people. You cannot divorce the state of the economy from this shit. Let's be real.

You're talking income and poverty, when I'm talking about people getting killed by police. You really think that getting out of poverty is going to stop police from targeting black people? This is where we differ. I'm not convinced that getting out of poverty fixes a thing when it's institutionalized in such a wide manner. If it's so ingrained, then surely, getting out of poverty will achieve jack shit on the topic of police. Chris Rock has been stopped a billion times by cops - three times in two months - and he's rich, yet you maintain that getting out of poverty will fix this? Be real. Chris Rock is worth 70 million, and he's still he's still nothing but dirt to them. We live in a place where a dude who breaks into his own home is arrested due to racist police, yet you think this is a socio-economical problem and that we should just sit at the kiddie table and wait our turn while police are killing us?

And I thought I wrote 90's. Typo, but it doesn't matter at this point.

[Mandark]

I really don't want to get into a Critical Theory 101 discussion, but, for example, I can't say I was surprised that Drinky--who denied that a zygote was a person the record will show--copped to being uncomfortable with abortion past the first trimester. Our philosophical frameworks inform our positions on issues and simply stating positions without providing that framework up front requires other people to figure out what that framework is exactly, which can be a rather messy process.

For that matter, trying to honestly assess one's own framework can be pretty useful, if only to make sure you actually have one and aren't just constantly excusing the awfulness of your chosen tribe.

[chronovore]

Did you know the UC system was instituted as a tuition free college education for California residents. 

When did that change?

[Phoenix Dark]

More anecdotes. You're missing the point but this is probably my last post on the subject. Police brutality is a symptom of a devastated socioeconomic state, especially in inner cities. Police are an occupying force in many inner cities plagued by violence and drugs. As long as you have crime infested areas you're going to have a lot of police. The areas are crime infested in large part due to the factors I've discussed, most of which are socioeconomic - and the results of institutional barriers and/or racism.

Police should have body cams, there should be civilian review boards, people should elect prosecutors who hold police accountable, etc. But police are going to remain shitty as long as they're occupying war zones. Just as people in those war zones are going to continue perpetuating a cycle of violence as long as they're in a war zone with no opportunities or hope. My general view is that these communities need to be revived. If people have opportunities and jobs and afterschool programs and job training and education they're less likely to participate in violence. If you can lower the violence (including btw getting illegal guns off the streets) there would be less need for the damn police. Their policing tactics would change as well. I hold no illusions that this alone will stop a crooked piece of shit cop from being that way, or make a racist cop see the light. But my focus is on ending the occupation of our streets. And unless you want a post-Freddie Gray Baltimore situation, the best way to do that is by addressing the institutional issues that lead to the crime that brings them into the neighborhood.

If you disagree with me, fine. But you can take that emotional bullshit and attempts to outright dismiss the argument elsewhere. You don't look or sound serious about the issue if you want to pretend like we're not dealing with a design. This isn't fucking magic. And therefore "stop killing us" is not a policy. Nearly every concrete policy you presumably support concerning police is also supported by me. My argument is simply that taking certain toys away from cops or making them wear cameras is not going to change their behavior, when their behavior is a product of a designed system. Just as inner city violence is.

[Himu]

I agree with just about everything you said on the topic of how to fix it. The problem is your previous manner of expressing it. I also agree that cops aren't going to change a thing unless they stop treating the areas they're supposed to be protecting as war zones. However, not all black people who are killed by the police are in those areas you're speaking of. It doesn't even only affect black people (see: Zachary Hammond). You act like it's only in the ghetto, when Sandra Bland got arrested and was ultimately killed despite getting a job at a university. Darrien Hunt was killed at an anime convention because he was cosplaying with a toy sword. What about Samuel DuBose? Are you going to dismiss that as another anecdote? I refuse to dismiss deaths as mere "anecdotes". Yet you deem is "emotional bullshit" because you seem more than perfectly fine with deflecting the issue and basing it solely on socio-economics, despite this affecting blacks of all class.

I don't think I ever gleaned that "stop killing us" was a policy? No one ever said it was? If anything, isn't it up to politicians like, you know, Bernie Sanders to come up with policy? A politician's policy certainly won't be "stop killing black people" but it'll certainly push them into trying to take those toys away from police so they *can* stop killing us. You somehow have gotten the idea that protesters think "stop killing us" is a policy, and not just a manner to unite and press the issue which gives the idea that you are completely removed from the current movement or what it is trying to accomplish.

Point me to a place where people said "stop killing us" was an actual policy and not a rally cry?

[Himu]

This person has been murdered in the digital realm. Revive them?

[Himu]

What's that? You're going to have to post louder, JD.

[Himu]

[Van Cruncheon]

i told yo' ass this would happen

[brawndolicious]

Did you know the UC system was instituted as a tuition free college education for California residents. 

When did that change?

It's still possible but unlikely. I went to UCSC like you but I was probably older (22yo transfer student) and as a result of my age/grades/completed coursework, I was an independent and probably considered a better investment as far as need and ability to be successful with a degree. As a result, that particular school matched my entire tuition with grants ($15k/year) and I got a little bit more on top of that from state and federal grants ($5k/year). But nearly everyone else I knew had to pay out of their or their parents pocket.

When I applied to UC schools in my senior year of high school, I had about the same ~3.5 GPA as when I transferred later but being from an upper middle class family, my counselor even told me that I probably won't qualify for any grants and I didn't even bother applying for financial aid so I don't know what I would have gotten. There might be something for anyone with minor physical/mental issues but like Cruncheon mentions, nobody with any pride would accept assistance for that unless it was a severe disability.

[Kara]

The UC system as it was was gutted by Prop 13. Previously local governments could reasonably finance themselves, afterwards they were more or less incapable of meeting their needs and wouldn't cut expenditures accordingly. Local governments became wards of Sacramento and the UC's budget got slashed so that Solvang's library could stay open, et cetera. Thanks for all your meaningful contributions to society, Howard Jarvis.

[Human Snorenado]

-I agree with PD and (gasp) Hillary about BLM. However, as a white dude, I realize that my opinion is pretty immaterial in the whole thing.
-I support the idea of a guaranteed minimum income.
-I honestly feel like libertarians should be quarantined so the stupid doesn't escape. We're not using Idaho for anything other than potatoes, right?
-There should be no restrictions on abortion, birth control should be free to everyone, and we should look into incentivizing people who want to get sterilized. Humans suck and there are too many of them.
-About every 30-40 years, we should just kill the richest people in the world to keep things interesting. No dynasties. No aristocracies.

Also, it should be noted: JD thinks it's totally cool if you want to rape, murder, and wear the skins of your pets, and I'm assuming your neighbors pets as long as you make financial restitution to them.

[Human Snorenado]

Also, I draw the line at furries. You people ain't right and should be beaten with a stick until you're fixed.

[Human Snorenado]

Y u hate fido, tho?

[Himu]

I disagree with Hilary.

They asked her about her ideas. She fired back with "what are YOUR ideas?" when she's the one running for president. The ideas are pretty clear. People want it federal for cops to wear cameras, for instance.

Not a good look. She seemed respectfully dismissive.

Tonight's Larry Wilmore had a good take on the entire debacle.

[Himu]

Also, it's hard to take Hilary seriously on this issue, especially when pressed on mass incarceration when she has received donations from Prison lobbyists. They raised the issues, Hilary. You just chose to ignore them, because facing them takes money out of your pocket.

[Shadow Mod]

Did you know the UC system was instituted as a tuition free college education for California residents. 

When did that change?

I'll give you a hint a certain asshole was Governor of California who would later become president.

[Himu]

Reagan completely ruined California.

[chronovore]

-I agree with PD and (gasp) Hillary about BLM. However, as a white dude, I realize that my opinion is pretty immaterial in the whole thing.
-I support the idea of a guaranteed minimum income.
-I honestly feel like libertarians should be quarantined so the stupid doesn't escape. We're not using Idaho for anything other than potatoes, right?
-There should be no restrictions on abortion, birth control should be free to everyone, and we should look into incentivizing people who want to get sterilized. Humans suck and there are too many of them.
-About every 30-40 years, we should just kill the richest people in the world to keep things interesting. No dynasties. No aristocracies.

Also, it should be noted: JD thinks it's totally cool if you want to rape, murder, and wear the skins of your pets, and I'm assuming your neighbors pets as long as you make financial restitution to them.

With Idaho, you'd already net a good portion of the Libertarian population, so you'd save on moving expenses.

[Kara]

Say "Black Lives Matter" while supporting killing "unarmed black kids" by the thousands every day, "brehs."

They could have arms, you don't know what trimester they're being aborted in.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Sorry for making this tasteless joke.

[close]

[Shadow Mod]

Eh I can see both sides of the coin with what PD/Himu are saying. To me you have to attack this on all fronts, institutional and personal. The problem of racism, violence by cops, in America isn't just a socioeconomic one, it's a perception of inferiority to other races, especially white people, that has never really been tackled in the public sphere and laid out. Our own president had to tiptoe around the topic, his own damn race and heritage, plenty of times. That speaks to a societal problem of denial to me more than anything. It's political and controversial to broach the topic despite the only way to solve it being a massive public dialogue. It's similar to how women's issues won't ever be solved without public dialogue, not this hushed voices behind closed doors crap.

[Himu]

Both issues stand upon feelings.

In the case of women's issues, men's feelings.

In the case of race issues, white people's feelings.

I say we keep hurting feelings. Maybe it'll force people to finally talk about it in a legitimate way and not the tip toe crap. I can see what PD's saying. My problem is him dismissing the entire movement. Yes, BLM is currently leaderless, yes we could use more direction, but I like what we are doing.

[Shadow Mod]

The biggest steps towards equality came when the aforementioned minority groups ran out into the street and protested like hell. Women have less access to reproductive health options (as in physical clinics) than over 40 fucking years ago. Think about that.

[Himu]

Yeah, I don't see the BLM movement settling down. If anything it'll get more organized and better, since the candidates are practically forcing us to.

[Human Snorenado]

I'm just going to say that as a white person, it almost feels Ackbar-ish when you have people asking you what you'd do, but then also maybe accusing you of white-splaining. I don't think Hillary asking them "what concrete policy proposals do you feel would help this situation?" is acting in bad faith.

Also, let me say this: I understand the situation is fucked. Black people are dying just for being black. You don't even have to be in the wrong place. It's fucked. This is 2015 and it's unacceptable. I fully recognize that I will never have to know how that feels. The situation absolutely warrants an emotional response. That said, once BLM became more than a twitter hashtag, and people started organizing actions, it really became important for the movement to start coming up with concrete policy requests they'd like to see addressed, and I absolutely feel like that is lacking, and I 100% agree with Hillary when she says that if all they're trying to do is change hearts without coming up with actionable policy requests (and police body cameras are just a start- the idiot in Cincinnati that shot the guy in his car had a camera on, for instance) then you will absolutely be back there in 10 year having the same conversations without anything having changed.

[Shadow Mod]

Here's something a president/doj can step in on:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/st-louis-county-charges_55d38848e4b0ab468d9eaf9f?q08uxr

[Phoenix Dark]

“The piece that’s most important….”

….is, apparently, telling Hillary Clinton that there is nothing that they, Black Lives Matter, can do about any of this. No advocacy. No policy agenda. No concrete plan. Nothing. Asking them to have a plan or a policy agenda? That is….victim-blaming. I am not kidding; that is what happens on the video.

—

I have alternated this entire day between befuddlement, bewilderment, and other nouns used to describe an unyielding state of confusion.

Just off the top of my head, there are at least three things that they could have asked for: a guaranteed right to protest without fear of ending your demonstration with a criminal background, legislation that bars police officers from earning pay while an investigation into a police shooting is ongoing, and a national limit to the amount of money that cities can make off moving violations and parking violations. Would those be my top three issues for the Black working class were I to receive the same audience? Absolutely not. But my goodness, it would be something more concrete than a response full of Intro to Sociology-style ephemera.

And for a series of protests that handwaves about “accountability”, it would have been beneficial to make concrete demands with which you could actually hold this person, you know, accountable. But what they allowed Hillary Clinton to do was completely evade any discussion of things that might actually get done if she becomes president in favor of allowing her to school them about the most fundamental premise behind policymaking institutions, which is to make policy.

Because if policy change is not the goal of this group of activists, then I am honestly wondering what the hell we are all doing here.

http://thesouthlawn.org/2015/08/18/a-short-follow-up-to-the-previous-post-on-black-lives-matter/

.

Utter nonsense. You can't converse with people who have pre-packaged bullshit slogans or phrases that they automatically hurl out in response to certain statements. That's some Lyndon LaRouche acolyte shit. Where's Benji...

[Himu]

Are you saying that BLM only have pre packaged bullshit phrases? Did you watch the interview?

Also, it's pretty obvious to me that Hilary waited to shoot them down rather than hear what they have to say.

I really question why you are so against BLM and why you have reduced everything about it to "pre packaged slogans". I'll admit that they could have done the Hilary thing much better, but you question why I would get emotional when you reduce it to something like that?

You should really watch the Nightly Show segment.

Personally, they fucked up with Hilary in general, especially since she's such a prime target who directly benefits from the exact oppression they speak of. A general problem with BLM is the lack of actual leadership, but dismissing their cause as nothing more than catchphrases seems completely dismissive in light of people still trying to get something done. They definitely aren't political savvy, but they're learning. Why can't you give them a chance? Why do you have to go out of your way to dismiss them for even trying?

[CatsCatsCats]

Didn't realize people had such strong feelings about the bureau of land management

[Shadow Mod]

How lame is the GOP that Trump has gotten this far and is the most competitive.

[Kara]

Eh I can see both sides of the coin with what PD/Himu are saying. To me you have to attack this on all fronts, institutional and personal. The problem of racism, violence by cops, in America isn't just a socioeconomic one, it's a perception of inferiority to other races, especially white people, that has never really been tackled in the public sphere and laid out. Our own president had to tiptoe around the topic, his own damn race and heritage, plenty of times. That speaks to a societal problem of denial to me more than anything. It's political and controversial to broach the topic despite the only way to solve it being a massive public dialogue. It's similar to how women's issues won't ever be solved without public dialogue, not this hushed voices behind closed doors crap.

At the risk of universalizing a specific historical experience, I don't know how anyone with a passable familiarity with the history of worldwide Jewry can put much stock in what PD is arguing.

[Brehvolution]

Didn't realize people had such strong feelings about the bureau of land management

If it was a hippy commune or a mosque, these same people would demand the government raze the place.

[Himu]

Eh I can see both sides of the coin with what PD/Himu are saying. To me you have to attack this on all fronts, institutional and personal. The problem of racism, violence by cops, in America isn't just a socioeconomic one, it's a perception of inferiority to other races, especially white people, that has never really been tackled in the public sphere and laid out. Our own president had to tiptoe around the topic, his own damn race and heritage, plenty of times. That speaks to a societal problem of denial to me more than anything. It's political and controversial to broach the topic despite the only way to solve it being a massive public dialogue. It's similar to how women's issues won't ever be solved without public dialogue, not this hushed voices behind closed doors crap.

At the risk of universalizing a specific historical experience, I don't know how anyone with a passable familiarity with the history of worldwide Jewry can put much stock in what PD is arguing.

Expound plz

[Steve Contra]

Love the word Jewry.

[Shadow Mod]

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/california/California-Lawmakers-Renew-Push-to-Pass-Right-To-Die-Bill-Despite-Pushback-from-Religious-Advocates-322176712.html

Really wish zealots would fuck right off already.

[VomKriege]

Expound plz

I would wager something about how the prejudice against jews preexisted whatever socioeconomic conditions they had (several, all partly drove and shaped by the prejudice.).The problem was settled not via economic reform but because of a massive collective guilt over the realization that prejudice can have consequences in the millions.

I'm only glancing at your discussion so apologies if I'm off the mark.

What the Jewry thinks of abortions ?

[Madrun Badrun]

Aww did I miss the political confessions?


- I'm super pro-nuclear, partly because Canada has a shit ton of uranium
- I don't think imperialism is necessarily bad.  In fact I think its absurd that that westerners think we can win wars without trying to hold any of these territories for a few decades.   
- I don't think university should be free or even inexpensive.  In fact I think Canada has way too many people with uni degrees as is (it's around 50% of the work force).  You should only be able be an arts major if you have rich parents. 

[brawndolicious]

When I talk to old people about civil rights issues, I feel like they kind of seem stuck in the steps their generation took in breaking down walls but then they feel like they did enough (ie: "we decriminalized being gay, but I think if they get marriage they won't be happy and will want EVEN MORE").

You can see both prejudice and guilt still exist in their hearts and in the case of BLM, they shouldn't expect the average non-black person to understand and feel the outrage they'll always feel. That's not to say that they should be all polite and soft spoken but they need leaders that are capable of evolving the tone of the discussion so that it can stay relevant. I just don't think there'll be much momentum for this issue beyond body cameras going around.

[Himu]

Leaving this here for JD-san

http://fusion.net/story/184032/black-lives-matter-martin-luther-king-hate-mail/?utm_source=facebook

[Madrun Badrun]

Aww did I miss the political confessions?


- I'm super pro-nuclear, partly because Canada has a shit ton of uranium

Pro-nuclear as in use that shit for energy production or make a bunch of bombs? (Image removed from quote.)

Energy, though the bombs are pretty important too. 

[Dickie Dee]

Leaving this here for JD-san

http://fusion.net/story/184032/black-lives-matter-martin-luther-king-hate-mail/?utm_source=facebook

I think that's a pretty insincere and vainglorious argument. People around at the nascency of the civil rights movement telling MLK to hush and maybe ride out this Jim Crow thing for a bit longer is a maybe a bit different than thinking #blacklivesmatter flashmobs at Bernie Saunders rallies might be a bit counter-productive.

Taking to the streets and not leaving the streets after Ferguson, that was genuinely productive. It was spontaneous, directionless, yet still probably had more positive policy impact than this hashtag slactivism bullshit ever will.

Dunno, I'll  be happy if this actually moves the goalposts and makes the Dem candidates commit to some meaningful policies that address policy brutality on blacks/incarceration rates for drug offenses vs. non-blacks etc.. Seems most I've heard (sorry you too Himu) just want to be heard and pay no mind if they're actually listened to.

[Himu]

Leaving this here for JD-san

http://fusion.net/story/184032/black-lives-matter-martin-luther-king-hate-mail/?utm_source=facebook

I think that's a pretty insincere and vainglorious argument. People around at the nascency of the civil rights movement telling MLK to hush and maybe ride out this Jim Crow thing out for a bit longer is a maybe a bit different than thinking #blacklivesmatter flashmobs at Bernie Saunders rallies might be a bit counter-productive.

Taking to the streets and not leaving the streets after Ferguson, that was genuinely productive. It was spontaneous, directionless, yet still probably had more positive policy impact than this hashtag slactivism bullshit ever will.

Dunno, I'll  be happy if this actually moves the goalposts and makes the Dem candidates commit to some meaningful policies that address policy brutality on blacks/incarceration rates for drug offenses vs. non-blacks etc.. Seems most I've heard (sorry you too Himu) just want to be heard and pay no mind if they're actually listened to.

Who said anything about Flash Mobs? The post was directed at JayDub, who posits that Black Lives Matters supporters are racist and part of the problem.

Woosh.

A real fucking big woosh at that.

[Dickie Dee]

The only way the title "Black Lives Matter" isn't some heinously racist shit in and of itself is if the "Too" is implicit.  As in "Black Lives Matter (Too)," as though that part was so obvious, it just went without saying.

Between you and the leaders of that group, based on your statements and various issue stances, it would not be a safe assumption, Himu.  I don't buy that you believe all human lives matter.   I don't think you hold the underlying value that all humans are created equal.

Hell, I don't even think you can convince anyone who can do math that you even think black lives matter very much.

Your views on what it means that "all humans are created equal" are so funhouse-mirror distorted that I don't think you bringing it up packs the punch that you think it does...

[Himu]

Am I correct assuming this is what you label "hashtag slacktivism" to be?

http://atlantablackstar.com/2015/08/11/on-the-anniversary-of-michael-browns-death-black-activists-recall-how-social-media-was-used-to-tell-the-real-story-from-ferguson-to-baltimore/

http://www.wsj.com/articles/a-year-after-ferguson-black-lives-matter-still-wields-influence-1439143426

Sure looks like a lot of hashtag slacktivism, enabling people a platform to learn facts that threaten them and mobilize to protest. All we do is sit at our computers and phones and don't do anything about it, apparently.

Lots of weird language coming from BLM opponents. "hashtag slacktivism" and "pre-packaged slogans" seems to make me think nothing they ever do would make you happy.

[Boogie]

Leaving this here for JD-san

http://fusion.net/story/184032/black-lives-matter-martin-luther-king-hate-mail/?utm_source=facebook

I think that's a pretty insincere and vainglorious argument. People around at the nascency of the civil rights movement telling MLK to hush and maybe ride out this Jim Crow thing out for a bit longer is a maybe a bit different than thinking #blacklivesmatter flashmobs at Bernie Saunders rallies might be a bit counter-productive.

Taking to the streets and not leaving the streets after Ferguson, that was genuinely productive. It was spontaneous, directionless, yet still probably had more positive policy impact than this hashtag slactivism bullshit ever will.

Dunno, I'll  be happy if this actually moves the goalposts and makes the Dem candidates commit to some meaningful policies that address policy brutality on blacks/incarceration rates for drug offenses vs. non-blacks etc.. Seems most I've heard (sorry you too Himu) just want to be heard and pay no mind if they're actually listened to.

Who said anything about Flash Mobs? The post was directed at JayDub, who posits that Black Lives Matters supporters are racist and part of the problem.

Woosh.

A real fucking big woosh at that.

Thought you had him on ignore?

[Himu]

I know JD's type. I don't have to read his posts to have an idea of what he's going to say. I keep baiting him for a reason, because he's predictable and dumb. I learned enough about his thought process from my Ferguson thread to know where he will deter any one conversation on this topic.

[Boogie]

I know JD's type. I don't have to read his posts to have an idea of what he's going to say. I keep baiting him for a reason, because he's predictable and dumb. I learned enough about his thought process from my Ferguson thread to know where he will deter any one conversation on this topic.

okay, well, in that case, though I am loath to grant JD points in general,

"Sandra Bland got arrested and was ultimately killed"

Sandra Bland was not "killed".   She committed suicide.   That does not make it any less of a tragedy, but that is what happened. 

And yes, you do sound more than a little loopy if you're suggesting otherwise.

[Dickie Dee]

Am I correct assuming this is what you label "hashtag slacktivism" to be?

http://atlantablackstar.com/2015/08/11/on-the-anniversary-of-michael-browns-death-black-activists-recall-how-social-media-was-used-to-tell-the-real-story-from-ferguson-to-baltimore/

http://www.wsj.com/articles/a-year-after-ferguson-black-lives-matter-still-wields-influence-1439143426

Sure looks like a lot of hashtag slacktivism, enabling people a platform to learn facts that threaten them and mobilize to protest. All we do is sit at our computers and phones and don't do anything about it, apparently.

Lots of weird language coming from BLM opponents. "hashtag slacktivism" and "pre-packaged slogans" seems to make me think nothing they ever do would make you happy.

ahem, I'm really not interested in getting into a pissing match with you Himu when I could be shitting down JayDubya's mouth right now, but I already praised the Ferguson response (if you couldn't get that that was a catch-all term for the many wonderful response protest movements in the last year or two then we're just talking past each other)

But why the fuck are people shutting down a fringe candidate. He knows he won't win and probably just want's in on the conversation, and now that he's actually entered the conversation...

He's running on a broad social justice platform, explain why you think shutting him down is smart.

[Dickie Dee]

Ah yes, the good old Ferguson thread, where a guy robbed a store and attacked a cop and yet you presented the tale as an innocent kid who was brutally and pointlessly executed because zOMG RACISM.  Based on your Bland comment, I bet you still believe that account is the truth, facts and evidence be damned.

And given that, you calling anyone dumb is beyond risible.

$100 to Planned Parenthood right now.

[Phoenix Dark]

You're killing the children, Larry.

[Shadow Mod]

Ah yes, the good old Ferguson thread, where a guy robbed a store and attacked a cop and yet you presented the tale as an innocent kid who was brutally and pointlessly executed because zOMG RACISM.  Based on your Bland comment, I bet you still believe that account is the truth, facts and evidence be damned.

And given that, you calling anyone dumb is beyond risible.

$100 to Planned Parenthood right now.

Whether true or not, you going into detail about how you're trash and you don't deserve to live is all you, buddy.

Ain't like I thought much better of you to begin with.

God it's so rich. It pairs so well with this Chardonnay too.

[Himu]

Am I correct assuming this is what you label "hashtag slacktivism" to be?

http://atlantablackstar.com/2015/08/11/on-the-anniversary-of-michael-browns-death-black-activists-recall-how-social-media-was-used-to-tell-the-real-story-from-ferguson-to-baltimore/

http://www.wsj.com/articles/a-year-after-ferguson-black-lives-matter-still-wields-influence-1439143426

Sure looks like a lot of hashtag slacktivism, enabling people a platform to learn facts that threaten them and mobilize to protest. All we do is sit at our computers and phones and don't do anything about it, apparently.

Lots of weird language coming from BLM opponents. "hashtag slacktivism" and "pre-packaged slogans" seems to make me think nothing they ever do would make you happy.

ahem, I'm really not interested in getting into a pissing match with you Himu when I could be shitting down JayDubya's mouth right now, but I already praised the Ferguson response (if you couldn't get that that was a catch-all term for the many wonderful response protest movements in the last year or two then we're just talking past each other)

But why the fuck are people shutting down a fringe candidate. He knows he won't win and probably just want's in on the conversation, and now that he's actually entered the conversation...

He's running on a broad social justice platform, explain why you think shutting him down is smart.

So you were fine with Black Lives Matter before the Bernie situation?

Do you realize that BLM is not an organized movement in the sense where there's a centralized speaking party? There's the hashtag, but there's also city chapters and organizations. I am part of Black Lives Matter Texas myself. The people who interrupted him a few weeks ago aren't even a part of any BLM Seattle organization, and are actually tied to anarchists, yet you seem dead pressed to throw away support for BLM the second they do anything that you disagree with as an overall movement despite no clear leader.

In many ways, your thinking is similar to JayDubya's. You have judged an entire movement based on...one, two? instances.

If all it takes for you to not support them because they interrupted a fringe candidate (who again, didn't really speak for the racial injustice at all), then perhaps you weren't really supportive of the movement to begin with?



"But they were rude!"

Who gives a fuck? And them being rude means that now the entire Black Lives Matter movement, across the hashtag as well as real world protests is nothing more than - again, your words - "a flash mob"?

Tell me how Bernie is immune to critique? Who cares if he's an ally? Has he showed to any rallies lately? Did he march in Ferguson? Did he march in HIS state? Scuttlebutt says no.

I highly suggest researching protests and protest behavior before we continue this any further.

This is a solid primer and also involves the lgbt protests I mentioned yesterday.



Remember when Mandark said it's a good thing evaluate one's convictions so they don't go along with ones tribe? Now's a pretty good time for that, because everything you're telling me reeks of discarding a legitimate movement in the name of (uh oh, catchphrase time) respectability.

[Steve Contra]

JayDubya's presence here is super weird.  Who would hang around a place where they think everyone is complicit in mass murder?  Also most people here genuinely like each other.  Like we've known each other for years and get along and I've been to people's weddings and know their kids and shit but JD's a weird poster who has dedicated a large part of his life to being a contrarian on forums where no one likes him.  Kind of sad if he wasn't a racist asshole.

[Dickie Dee]

Am I correct assuming this is what you label "hashtag slacktivism" to be?

http://atlantablackstar.com/2015/08/11/on-the-anniversary-of-michael-browns-death-black-activists-recall-how-social-media-was-used-to-tell-the-real-story-from-ferguson-to-baltimore/

http://www.wsj.com/articles/a-year-after-ferguson-black-lives-matter-still-wields-influence-1439143426

Sure looks like a lot of hashtag slacktivism, enabling people a platform to learn facts that threaten them and mobilize to protest. All we do is sit at our computers and phones and don't do anything about it, apparently.

Lots of weird language coming from BLM opponents. "hashtag slacktivism" and "pre-packaged slogans" seems to make me think nothing they ever do would make you happy.

ahem, I'm really not interested in getting into a pissing match with you Himu when I could be shitting down JayDubya's mouth right now, but I already praised the Ferguson response (if you couldn't get that that was a catch-all term for the many wonderful response protest movements in the last year or two then we're just talking past each other)

But why the fuck are people shutting down a fringe candidate. He knows he won't win and probably just want's in on the conversation, and now that he's actually entered the conversation...

He's running on a broad social justice platform, explain why you think shutting him down is smart.

So you were fine with Black Lives Matter before the Bernie situation?

Do you realize that BLM is not an organized movement in the sense where there's a centralized speaking party? There's the hashtag, but there's also city chapters and organizations. I am part of Black Lives Matter Texas myself. The people who interrupted him a few weeks ago aren't even a part of any BLM Seattle organization, and are actually tied to anarchists, yet you seem dead pressed to throw away support for BLM the second they do anything that you disagree with as an overall movement despite no clear leader.

In many ways, your thinking is similar to JayDubya's. You have judged an entire movement based on...one, two? instances.

If all it takes for you to not support them because they interrupted a fringe candidate (who again, didn't really speak for the racial injustice at all), then perhaps you weren't really supportive of the movement to begin with?

(Image removed from quote.)

"But they were rude!"

Who gives a fuck? And them being rude means that now the entire Black Lives Matter movement, across the hashtag as well as real world protests is nothing more than - again, your words - "a flash mob"?

Tell me how Bernie is immune to critique? Who cares if he's an ally? Has he showed to any rallies lately? Did he march in Ferguson? Did he march in HIS state? Scuttlebutt says no.

I highly suggest researching protests and protest behavior before we continue this any further.

This is a solid primer and also involves the lgbt protests I mentioned yesterday.



Remember when Mandark said it's a good thing evaluate one's convictions so they don't go along with ones tribe? Now's a pretty good time for that, because everything you're telling me reeks of discarding a legitimate movement in the name of (uh oh, catchphrase time) respectability.

I'm not going to go round and round on this, so here...

"So you were fine with Black Lives Matter before the Bernie situation?"
- Yes, hope that was a misfire, and I say that not as someone who holds Saunders as some Sacred Cow but looks at the protesters and just think "WTF are you at??".

"Do you realize that BLM is not an organized movement in the sense where there's a centralized speaking party? There's the hashtag, but there's also city chapters and organizations. I am part of Black Lives Matter Texas myself. The people who interrupted him a few weeks ago aren't even a part of any BLM Seattle organization, and are actually tied to anarchists, yet you seem dead pressed to throw away support for BLM the second they do anything that you disagree with as an overall movement despite no clear leader."
- Over how many posts did you fall in line and defend Saunders as a target because he wasn't saying exactly what you wanted to hear RIGHT NOW. I do not know what to say here Himu


"But they were rude!" Who gives a fuck? And them being rude means that now the entire Black Lives Matter movement, across the hashtag as well as real world protests is nothing more than - again, your words - "a flash mob"?
- Huh? I like rude. Rude is good. It's stupid that bothers me.

"Tell me how Bernie is immune to critique? Who cares if he's an ally? Has he showed to any rallies lately? Did he march in Ferguson? Did he march in HIS state? Scuttlebutt says no."
- Immune to critique? Never. Feel his social justice rhetoric is too broad and feel you can't support him? OK. Worthy of being deemed an intractable part of the establishment that must be engaged through disruptive protest countermeasures? FUCKING RIDICULOUS

[Himu]

I know JD's type. I don't have to read his posts to have an idea of what he's going to say. I keep baiting him for a reason, because he's predictable and dumb. I learned enough about his thought process from my Ferguson thread to know where he will deter any one conversation on this topic.

okay, well, in that case, though I am loath to grant JD points in general,

"Sandra Bland got arrested and was ultimately killed"

Sandra Bland was not "killed".   She committed suicide.   That does not make it any less of a tragedy, but that is what happened. 

And yes, you do sound more than a little loopy if you're suggesting otherwise.

Okay. I just don't buy the suicide. The bar was 5 foot tall, girl is over 6 foot if memory serves. Given there's a precedent for guards and jailers killing people that are supposed to be under their custody, I don't trust the police in this case, especially THOSE Texas police near Prairie View. as far I can throw them.

I'm currently waiting for results from a private autopsy results. You say she wasn't murdered, it was suicide, when the police in this situation have been running around changing the conversation constantly, making them look culpable. Whenever police do that, they always look suspect. Just like how they refuse right now to handover dashcam footage of the murder they pulled on poor Zachary.

Where's your convincing evidence she killed herself? Are you one of the people that says she ingested a "large amount of marijuana" as well?