US Politics Thread |OT| SAD TRUMP

[Trent Dole]

https://twitter.com/dasharez0ne/status/938527419010633728

[Phoenix Dark]

Franken gotta go

Check that date. DNC needs to listen to PD.

When was the last time a noteworthy public person was accused of sexual assault by ONE person? There's (almost) always someone else. When the Moore story first broke it was so obvious that more women would come out, and the same applies here.

That's why defending these dudes is ludicrous. If you jump on the defense bandwagon after accuser #1...accuser #2 shows up a week later. Then accuser #3. etc.


I get the impression democrats (and republicans) are afraid of the precedent this could set. Accusations are hurled, a senator is forced to resign, and the governor calls for a special election. In this case, democrats have nothing to worry about because Minnesota is a blue state with a democrat governor and a deep bench of replacements. But what if this happened to a democrat senator in a state with a republican governor? Suddenly you're looking at the possibility of losing a vote in congress. Even still, that political calculus is NOT more important than doing the right thing. He gotta go and shoulda been gone.

[shosta]

once franken goes they'll slap keith elliot in there and all the news will be overshadowed by the first muslim senator

which will galvanize the evangelical right from their slumber and the race war will finally begin, as foretold by IFC's "The Whitest People You Know"

[benjipwns]

I get the impression democrats (and republicans) are afraid of the precedent this could set. Accusations are hurled, a senator is forced to resign, and the governor calls for a special election. In this case, democrats have nothing to worry about because Minnesota is a blue state with a democrat governor and a deep bench of replacements. But what if this happened to a democrat senator in a state with a republican governor? Suddenly you're looking at the possibility of losing a vote in congress. Even still, that political calculus is NOT more important than doing the right thing. He gotta go and shoulda been gone.

giving em a scalp will just encourage them to drag more hundred dollar bills through trailer parks

it's almost like you don't want Democratic men (especially minority icons like John Conyers and their chosen heirs*) to ever hold political power again

*

The son of scandal-plagued Michigan Rep. John Conyers was arrested, but not charged, for body slamming and stabbing his girlfriend in California earlier this year, records show.

John Conyers III, a Detroit hedge fund manager possibly contending for his father's vacant Congress seat, was cuffed at a Los Angeles residence on Feb. 15, according to case paperwork obtained by the Daily News. His girlfriend, who is not identified in the paperwork, had called the cops after her 27-year-old beau grew violent and accused her of cheating on him.

The girlfriend told investigators that Conyers “body slammed her on the bed and then on the floor where he pinned her down and spit on her.”

After the girlfriend tried to call the cops, an enraged Conyers allegedly took her phone and chased her into the kitchen where she grabbed a knife and screamed at him to leave. Instead, she said, Conyers took the knife and swung it at her, slashing her arm.

[Nola]

Franken gotta go

Check that date. DNC needs to listen to PD.

When was the last time a noteworthy public person was accused of sexual assault by ONE person? There's (almost) always someone else. When the Moore story first broke it was so obvious that more women would come out, and the same applies here.

That's why defending these dudes is ludicrous. If you jump on the defense bandwagon after accuser #1...accuser #2 shows up a week later. Then accuser #3. etc.


I get the impression democrats (and republicans) are afraid of the precedent this could set. Accusations are hurled, a senator is forced to resign, and the governor calls for a special election. In this case, democrats have nothing to worry about because Minnesota is a blue state with a democrat governor and a deep bench of replacements. But what if this happened to a democrat senator in a state with a republican governor? Suddenly you're looking at the possibility of losing a vote in congress. Even still, that political calculus is NOT more important than doing the right thing. He gotta go and shoulda been gone.

At this point he absolutely should, and for his own self-preservation should of done it at least a week ago, if not sooner since he knew this was the possible outcome.

At the same time, there has to be a set of standards and process that Democrats and the left ultimately broadly adhere to when these allegations crop up. I still would advice against just assuming more will come out, therefore operate as such, since it is a really faulty decision-making tool. It's the sort of mental shortcut where people start decrying others as alt-right simply because they share one viewpoint that can be loosely construed as in that wheelhouse, so therefore assume they share additional views. As a certain message board likes to point out, mobs aren't always good at using those tools effectively.

On the other hand, Pelosi's approach to start questioning the victims was really damaging, and absolutely the wrong way to go. The representatives have to figure out a set of standards and principles because the other side is never going to have them and if you want to genuinely be a voice for this issue, you can't run around using the Republican's tools. Having your heart in the right place means jack shit when the tough choice comes and you skirt.

Anyways, if the guy has any chance at a future he should own up to it, stay in the public life in other ways and try and be the type of rare person that takes ownership  of his actions, takes his licks, and tries to be proactive and helpful where he can.

[Phoenix Dark]

John Conyers sexually harassed my cousin almost 20 years ago. But I can happily report, Benji, that she also met John Dingell and said he was very nice/funny.

[Mandark]

The first accusation against Franken you could maaaaybe paint as an isolated incident, ie an entertainer pushing someone's boundaries for the sake of a gag, rather than his own gratification. When the next woman said he grabbed her ass during a photo and he came back with "oh gosh I don't remember" that was a wrap.

[Human Snorenado]

I think largely, the dem power structure in the Senate did the right thing. Ask for an ethics investigation, sit and wait for more accusers (oh hey, what do you know, there were more accusers) and now we're at the "demanding his resignation" phase of the process.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/schumer-calls-for-al-franken-to-resign

When your caucus leader is joining in the chorus, you're toast.

[benjipwns]

Kirsten Gillibrand slowly eliminating her opposition...but she'll need a different tactic if she hopes to stop 2020 Democratic frontrunner Terry McAuliffe.

Unless that alligator is still alive and reveals there's more to that tale.

[Nola]

I think largely, the dem power structure in the Senate did the right thing. Ask for an ethics investigation, sit and wait for more accusers (oh hey, what do you know, there were more accusers) and now we're at the "demanding his resignation" phase of the process.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/schumer-calls-for-al-franken-to-resign

When your caucus leader is joining in the chorus, you're toast.

Yeah, I think by and large, if I'm not nitpicking, given the relative newness of society giving a shit about this writ large(well, at least left-leaning society and Republicans when it is politically advantageous) they have put together a decent roadmap to improve upon.

On the flip side, Republicans have also given a powerful roadmap of how to exploit it when needed, and power through it with deny deny, deny. Of course helps when you have a massive propaganda structure to back you up and a shameless leader.

[benjipwns]

Ah, yes, you're talking about the Clinton/Weissmann/Strzok/Franken/Comey/Weinstein/Loretta Lynch On The Tarmac/Russian Dossier/Obama/ABC/MSDNC/Clinton/Soros machine I see.

[Mandark]

I still would advice against just assuming more will come out, therefore operate as such, since it is a really faulty decision-making tool. It's the sort of mental shortcut

It's actually pretty statistically sound, as heuristics go.

Using this* as an example, while over a third of rapists are one-time offenders, less than 10% of all rapes are committed by those men. A victim coming forward is super likely to have been attacked by a serial offender.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

*This is a quick google result to grab some actual numbers, but the point stands if you accept that 1) serial offenders make up a significant portion of all offenders and 2) they average at least 5-10 incidents each. Open to other data, but this jibes roughly with what I'd expect.

[close]

[Nola]

I still would advice against just assuming more will come out, therefore operate as such, since it is a really faulty decision-making tool. It's the sort of mental shortcut

It's actually pretty statistically sound, as heuristics go.

Using this* as an example, while over a third of rapists are one-time offenders, less than 10% of all rapes are committed by those men. A victim coming forward is super likely to have been attacked by a serial offender.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

*This is a quick google result to grab some actual numbers, but the point stands if you accept that 1) serial offenders make up a significant portion of all offenders and 2) they average at least 5-10 incidents each. Open to other data, but this jibes roughly with what I'd expect.

[close]

My original, longer post, mentioned that while it is probably good as a 85-95% mental shortcut generally(more or less depending on who is using it) - and perhaps heavily so in male sexual assault cases if your study on rape can be more broadly interpreted - that when it comes to something like publicly elected officials, and public process, that 5-10% gap plus context should be accounted for in whatever process. Normative or otherwise.

And I was gonna point out that the initial context of Franken's was somewhat unique in that he reached out to the woman and the woman had forgiven him(albeit after the fact). And the whole first two accusations were a bit of a hard call compared to other recent ones.

In personal message board banter? Yeah, whatever, heuristics galore. We all sort of do it. Its unavoidable. in terms of a structural process? I don't think beyond a reasonable doubt is needed, but at least something that inches toward a normative process of deliberation that addresses context and establishes something like at least a preponderance of certainty.

 I think as Human Snorenado pointed out, I think broadly they handled this better than I was initially expecting(Pelosi notwithstanding): trust the victim, start an ethics investigation(which as a side note probably needs to be revamped significantly after reading up on it during all this), and wait to see what evidence follows, as more evidence arises, calls for resignation become pretty justifiable as it was with Franken. And frankly, if I'm honest, if a few innocent people get shamed out wrongly or from over-correction of a systemic problem, I wouldn't go red-pilling over it.

[benjipwns]

A Democratic official who has spoken to Al Franken and key aides says Franken will resign his Minnesota Senate seat on Thursday, the official tells MPR News.

The official spoke to Franken and separately to Franken's staff. A staff member told the official that Franken had gone to his Washington home to discuss his plans with family.

Minnesota Gov. Mark Dayton is expected to appoint his lieutenant governor and close ally, Tina Smith, to Al Franken’s seat if the Democratic senator resigns on Thursday, three people familiar with the Democratic governor’s thinking said.

But that appointment would be just the start of an upheaval in Minnesota. Part of the reason Smith could be heading to the Senate, the sources said, is that she has indicated no interest in running for Congress in the past and would not run for the remainder of Franken’s term, which expires in 2020, in a 2018 special election. That would clear the way for a wide open Democratic primary next year if Franken steps down.

Earlier in the afternoon, a Warren aide told the Globe that the senator had talked to Franken privately and told him he should step down.

Though Franken's office is denying:
https://twitter.com/SenFranken/status/938532408525246464

[benjipwns]

Meanwhile the Hillary Clinton scandal continues: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/12/06/over-10000-texts-between-ex-mueller-officials-found-after-discovery-anti-trump-messages.html

Justice Department officials are reading through “over 10,000 texts” between FBI officials Peter Strzok and Lisa Page, Fox News has learned, after it emerged Strzok was removed from Special Counsel Robert Mueller's Russia probe following the discovery of anti-Trump messages between them.

Department of Justice officials told Fox News they are in the process of going through the texts so they can hand them over to the House Intelligence Committee.

Strzok, who was an FBI counterintelligence agent, had worked on the Mueller probe, but was reassigned to the FBI’s human resources division after the discovery of anti-Trump text messages with Page, with whom he was having an affair. Page was briefly on Mueller’s team, but since has returned to the FBI.

The review process comes as the committee also threatens to move forward with a contempt resolution against top DOJ and FBI officials barring an imminent breakthrough — after the agencies did not comply with a deadline to hand over long-sought information that goes well beyond text messages.

Strzok is a focus of their efforts. House investigators have long regarded him as a key figure in the chain of events when the bureau, in 2016, received the infamous anti-Trump "dossier" and launched a counterintelligence investigation into Russian meddling in the election that ultimately came to encompass FISA surveillance of a Trump campaign associate.

House Intelligence Committee Chairman Devin Nunes, R-Calif., has sought documents and witnesses from the DOJ and FBI to determine what role, if any, the dossier played in the move to direct the surveillance.

Strzok briefed the committee on Dec. 5, 2016, sources said. But within months of that session House Intelligence Committee investigators were contacted by an informant suggesting that there was “documentary evidence” that Strzok was purportedly obstructing the House probe into the dossier.

Fox News has learned that Strzok also oversaw the bureau’s interviews with ousted National Security Advisor Michael Flynn – who pleaded guilty Friday to lying to FBI investigators in the Russia probe.

He also was present during the FBI’s July 2016 interview with Hillary Clinton

This is why we need a special prosecutor investigating Hillary Clinton, Sean was right that this (Hillary Clinton) should be a top priority investigation, investigating Hillary Clinton that is.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

He actually was arguing for that the other day and even his guest from Judicial Watch or whatever was like "umm maybe not? just let her go man, focus on the now"

[close]

[agrajag]

But the emails!

[Nola]

Interesting take from Preet Bharara.

“We know from public reports that Flynn has a ton of criminal exposure, and yet he’s pleading guilty to a relatively minor crime,” Savannah Law School professor Andy Wright told my colleague Sean Illing. “I’m confident Flynn is singing like a bird to Mueller.” (Eight other law professors made similar arguments to Illing.)

Not so sure: Preet Bharara, the former US attorney for the Southern District of New York who was fired by President Trump earlier this year.

“I don’t know that I believe that,” Bharara said.

In particular, Bharara disputes the common argument that the relatively light charge against Flynn (one false statements count) clearly shows he must have agreed to provide especially valuable information to Mueller’s investigation. (Flynn’s clearly offering some information, but the question is just how important it will be.)

Bharara refers to his own experience supervising similar high-profile investigations and prosecutions. “When we had evidence against somebody and wanted them to flip, we made them plead guilty to every bad act that they had ever done,” Bharara said. “Especially if we were later gonna be alleging other people had engaged in that activity as well.”

Doing that, Bharara argues, makes a witness like Flynn more credible in court if he has to testify against someone else. “Otherwise, the only thing the jury will know for a fact about your witness is that he is an admitted, convicted liar,” he said.

So what does Bharara think could be going on? One possibility, he suggests, is that Mueller doesn’t have anything else on Flynn that might stand up in court: “People need to really consider the possibility that this might be it.”

But Bharara also suggests another scenario: that Mueller is “holding back on other charges to which Michael Flynn will plead guilty if and when they form the basis of charging some other folks.”

That is — certain potential charges against Flynn could implicate others in Trump’s orbit as well, and Mueller’s team just isn’t ready to make those charges yet (and might never be).

https://www.vox.com/2017/12/5/16735480/michael-flynn-plea-preet-bharara

https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/special-episode-michael-flynns-guilty-plea

in the podcast he offers three possible scenarios that include the initial consensus many observers have speculated. But he is pulling form his own experience and why he is hesitant to jump on board with that. Though he doesn't mention Pap, and I wonder how two light deals would change his perception and if he would see it as a trend? He doesn't mention it I don't think.

I would be curious to hear from anyone more familiar with the Sammy Gravano deal. I know he got off incredibly easy considering 19 murders and all. But i think he did admit to taking part in them, so that might add to what Preet is saying.

[benjipwns]

You can't look at prior cases because they likely all had crimes alleged triggering the investigation. Mueller's empowering as special counsel came with no crime to investigate, possibly for the first time in history (I couldn't find any other special counsels or IC's with such a grant in a cursory search), he's to determine if there was "collusion" and if there even were any crimes committed.

I've seen it suggested that even Flynn's obviously dirty dealings with Turkey may not violate any laws or not violate any laws to the clear extent that it's worth prosecuting.

Like I said, based on the public information Flynn's deal makes no sense for either side as part of something leading to testimony regarding a conspiracy of further crimes. And like Preet, I noted the oddity of having your "star" witness plead guilty to lying at least three times to the government (not to mention the news stories where Flynn is alleged to have mislead Pence, etc.) before he testifies.

Which is why one scenario I'm not tossing out is that Mueller's essentially done, and this is part of wrapping up with handful of tiny procedural crimes found, before writing his report indicating that there's no vast criminal or even shady international conspiracy to uncover, especially since Hillary Clinton's e-mails, DNC Debates/Primaries Theft and murder of Seth Rich are all well known crimes she committed and personally ordered.

[Nola]

You can't look at prior cases because they likely all had crimes alleged triggering the investigation. Mueller's empowering as special counsel came with no crime to investigate, possibly for the first time in history (I couldn't find any other special counsels or IC's with such a grant in a cursory search), he's to determine if there was "collusion" and if there even were any crimes committed.

I've seen it suggested that even Flynn's obviously dirty dealings with Turkey may not violate any laws or not violate any laws to the clear extent that it's worth prosecuting.

Like I said, based on the public information Flynn's deal makes no sense for either side as part of something leading to testimony regarding a conspiracy of further crimes. And like Preet, I noted the oddity of having your "star" witness plead guilty to lying at least three times to the government (not to mention the news stories where Flynn is alleged to have mislead Pence, etc.) before he testifies.

Which is why one scenario I'm not tossing out is that Mueller's essentially done, and this is part of wrapping up with handful of tiny procedural crimes found, before writing his report indicating that there's no vast criminal or even shady international conspiracy to uncover, especially since Hillary Clinton's e-mails, DNC Debates/Primaries Theft and murder of Seth Rich are all well known crimes she committed and personally ordered.

Well you do seem to be fairly alone on that one Benji. Same kinda goes with the hypothesis that things are shortly wrapping up, especially given the Deutsche bank thing yesterday. But like any hot takes on this, mine included, time will prove or disprove all theories.

[benjipwns]

From your own post:

Bharara disputes the common argument that the relatively light charge against Flynn (one false statements count) clearly shows he must have agreed to provide especially valuable information to Mueller’s investigation. (Flynn’s clearly offering some information, but the question is just how important it will be.)
...
“Especially if we were later gonna be alleging other people had engaged in that activity as well.”

Because I'm not a lawyer opining in my professional capacity, just a forum douchebag jerk asshole loser I don't have to temper my statements like that, I'm taking in other knowledge about Flynn (not to mention others like his son or the guy who hired him to be NSA) to wonder what information he could possibly have relating to a international criminal conspiracy that only he and the conspirators have which has been kept secret (so secret that we don't even know what the crime could possibly be!) for two years.

And why they couldn't just hammer out a standard plea deal if that was the case.

[benjipwns]

But like any hot takes on this, mine included, time will prove or disprove all theories.

Spoken like someone still living in the days of regular irony.

[Nola]

From your own post:

Bharara disputes the common argument that the relatively light charge against Flynn (one false statements count) clearly shows he must have agreed to provide especially valuable information to Mueller’s investigation. (Flynn’s clearly offering some information, but the question is just how important it will be.)
...
“Especially if we were later gonna be alleging other people had engaged in that activity as well.”

Because I'm not a lawyer opining in my professional capacity, just a forum douchebag jerk asshole loser I don't have to temper my statements like that, I'm taking in other knowledge about Flynn (not to mention others like his son or the guy who hired him to be NSA) to wonder what information he could possibly have relating to a international criminal conspiracy that only he and the conspirators have which has been kept secret (so secret that we don't even know what the crime could possibly be!) for two years.

And why they couldn't just hammer out a standard plea deal if that was the case.

Yeah, on the podcast though he makes it more clear than VOX that he is open to three possibilities. 1, the common theory going around law expert circles that Flynn has some serious goods(he is skeptical here). 2, the one that is in line with how he operates, how people he really respects see it, that Mueller is holding off on charging some other crimes til appropriate, til those cases get stronger and more relevant, not wanting Flynn to admit to a crime that would implicate other people that they are still building the case on, reducing their hand in the prosecution. Which is how they would of done it in that situation, maybe, but acknowledges its not the only way, but for him it makes sense. 3, that as you say, this might be it for Flynn. The case isn't as strong on that other stuff and Mueller isn't going to get a whole lot of cooperation. People may be over-excited and he cautions them to accept this as a possibility.

He's planning on a more extensive podcast tomorrow to flesh out his thoughts, so it should be interesting to hear.

[benjipwns]

He's leaving out a fourth possibility because we like to assume corruption gets punished. That Mueller essentially hasn't found any new crimes. Or at least crimes that he wants to prosecute. (A special counsel can simply issue recommendations to the AG... also hand off the cases to standard Justice employees like I'd imagine he may do on Manafort and friend, as that's a fairly straight forward criminal case at this point, whether or not he has more to pursue as special counsel.)

[thehunter116]

Ok Benji I gotta know why do you argue for the impossible? At least here.

You and I and anyone with a brain knows this isn't gonna end with lying to the FBI.

[benjipwns]

I don't know that, and certainly don't consider this being entirely nothing to be impossible.

I mean, can you even propose to me what the crimes committed here are supposed to be?

Feels like something we should be able to workshop around and get a ballpark idea with some general supporting evidence at this point.

Instead, the primary argument seems to be: "wait for Mueller to reveal it with his secret investigating powers because it's wedged in there so deep by the brilliant Trump that the world's most qualified human being to ever exist couldn't figure it out, let alone an entire Administration with all the powers of foreign and domestic intelligence gathering plus their media hounds nor large chunks of the Republican Party (or they all have sat on their hands for two and a half years rather than telling anyone)" and anyone who questions why there isn't even any puffs of smoke doesn't believe that fire can ever exist!!!

We had endless proof of actual crimes by the Bush Administration. Is this going to turn out to be a bloodbath of criminal prosecutions like those cases?

[Mandark]

It took over a year for that Trump Tower meeting to come to light, right?

[team filler]

Either nothing worthwhile can be proven, or it can, but not against anybody that really matters at this point. Trump isn't going down and nobody that votes republican really cares either way. They'll still vote for their team, none of this shit even matters. 

[benjipwns]

Yeah, three months after Kushner reported it to the government, the NYT found out. And it was much ado about nothing except that Trump Jr. couldn't stop lying about it to the media.

An idiot son's useless 20 minute meeting is something that's way easier to go unnoticed than an extensive international criminal conspiracy.

[Mandark]

If he was constantly lying about it, why are we accepting his amended version of events now?

[shosta]

Because the FBI is asking him about it

[benjipwns]

I mean, look, I'd obviously love a clusterfuck of rolling criminal prosecutions tearing any administration apart. The longer the better.

I just can't see the case here, at all. And I guess I'm just pushing back a bit because everyone has been waiting for the EVENT that wipes out the whole Trump phenomenon for two whole years now. And literally everything is getting played up as ANOTHER PIECE OF THE PUZZLE or BOOM! THE EMPIRE CRUMBLES.

I don't think these people, especially the Twitter Champion, are competent or smart enough to pull literally anything complex off, let alone some kind of elaborate mastermind plan with all kinds of foreign agents that they hide for two whole years without a peep. And that's just from looking at their success rate in the past which is built on seemingly unrealistic amounts of luck. This whole premise is hooked back to some kind of nebulous and illegal collusion between the campaign and Russia that demonstrably altered the election process that nobody in the global media has snagged, the Clinton campaign never got wind of, the Obama Administration either ignored or never spotted, etc. It seems way too far fetched and has so many moving parts as to be literally unbelievable.

[thehunter116]

Yeah, three months after Kushner reported it to the government, the NYT found out. And it was much ado about nothing except that Trump Jr. couldn't stop lying about it to the media.

An idiot son's useless 20 minute meeting is something that's way easier to go unnoticed than an extensive international criminal conspiracy.

I mean...look at what's going on with the Panama papers. If something needs to stay hidden it will.

[Mandark]

If he was constantly lying about it, why are we accepting his amended version of events now?

[thehunter116]

I mean, look, I'd obviously love a clusterfuck of rolling criminal prosecutions tearing any administration apart. The longer the better.

I just can't see the case here, at all. And I guess I'm just pushing back a bit because everyone has been waiting for the EVENT that wipes out the whole Trump phenomenon for two whole years now. And literally everything is getting played up as ANOTHER PIECE OF THE PUZZLE or BOOM! THE EMPIRE CRUMBLES.

I don't think these people, especially the Twitter Champion, are competent or smart enough to pull literally anything complex off, let alone some kind of elaborate mastermind plan with all kinds of foreign agents that they hide for two whole years without a peep. And that's just from looking at their success rate in the past which is built on seemingly unrealistic amounts of luck. This whole premise is hooked back to some kind of nebulous and illegal collusion between the campaign and Russia that demonstrably altered the election process that nobody in the global media has snagged, the Clinton campaign never got wind of, the Obama Administration either ignored or never spotted, etc. It seems way too far fetched and has so many moving parts as to be literally unbelievable.

I mean Trump has been taking Russian money for decades now.

It's actually less likely there isn't something there at this point. I get what you're saying but if all this is nothing...why do they keep lying? Why do they keep getting caught with Russians and why does a man like Mueller who isn't prone to needless Trey Gowdy expeditions still on the case?

Do you seriously think 16 prolific lawyers who were making multi-million dollars took this case on for nothing?

[benjipwns]

If he was constantly lying about it, why are we accepting his amended version of events now?

Who says we are? He's just finally gotten his story straight with Kusher and Manafort when they testified to the House and Senate, and everyone else present has supported Kushner's evaluation that it was a waste of time, so unless we find reason to think there's some kind of bombshell revelation that finally lays the whole plot out hiding in those 20 minutes that Mueller is going to squeeze out of people who weren't present I'm not sure where else this Trump Tower meeting is supposed to lead in the investigation other than where it led in the media's investigation, a dead end supporting the claim of all the attending parties that it was Trump Jr. playing big shot spymaster.

[Mandark]

Who says we are?

I am, cause you are.

[thehunter116]

If he was constantly lying about it, why are we accepting his amended version of events now?

Who says we are? He's just finally gotten his story straight with Kusher and Manafort when they testified to the House and Senate, and everyone else present has supported Kushner's evaluation that it was a waste of time, so unless we find reason to think there's some kind of bombshell revelation that finally lays the whole plot out hiding in those 20 minutes that Mueller is going to squeeze out of people who weren't present I'm not sure where else this Trump Tower meeting is supposed to lead in the investigation other than where it led in the media's investigation, a dead end supporting the claim of all the attending parties that it was Trump Jr. playing big shot spymaster.

Why did they all lie?

Why do we have conflicting stories?

Why was there talk of "adoptions".

[benjipwns]

I mean...look at what's going on with the Panama papers. If something needs to stay hidden it will.

Those just named names, they didn't expose things that weren't already known.

I mean Trump has been taking Russian money for decades now.

It's actually less likely there isn't something there at this point. I get what you're saying but if all this is nothing...why do they keep lying? Why do they keep getting caught with Russians and why does a man like Mueller who isn't prone to needless Trey Gowdy expeditions still on the case?

Do you seriously think 16 prolific lawyers who were making multi-million dollars took this case on for nothing?

Maybe they, like you, assume it's literally impossible for there not to be a major scale Administration destroying crime here that will make them more than rich but gods. We already know some of them took it on because they were deluded partisans.

Again, I'd just like to know what crimes Trump has supposedly engaged in that the Obama Administration refused to ever investigate him for. Or to fit with the original mandate of the special counsel, what the illegal collusion between the Trump campaign and Russian government is supposed to look like. I don't know why it's so hard to even hypothetically come up with some plausible ones even if they don't fit any of the facts available.

It's better than the endless frenzy that we're finally going to see Barry Soetoro's real foreign birth certificate this time certainly.

[benjipwns]

I am, cause you are.

I'm not accepting anything Trump Jr. says as definitive. But I am wondering now what should I instead assume the meeting was about other than what everyone aside from Trump Jr. said to the House and Senate, and that Trump Jr. now also said to the House and Senate?

Or is this one of those I should just assume SOMETHING IS THERE BECAUSE THERE HAS TO BE! THERE MUST BE! HE CAN'T KEEP GETTING AWAY WITH NOT HAVING DONE ANYTHING ILLEGAL!

Yeah, they're all liars and absence of evidence is not evidence of absence but if I want to start constructing this opposite case that hellfire is about to rain down on the Trump family name for the rest of eternity not to mention (and more importantly in my view) destroy another criminal administration, I kinda want something more than the bupkis being treated like it's just short of a signed confession.

[thehunter116]

I mean...look at what's going on with the Panama papers. If something needs to stay hidden it will.

Those just named names, they didn't expose things that weren't already known.

I mean Trump has been taking Russian money for decades now.

It's actually less likely there isn't something there at this point. I get what you're saying but if all this is nothing...why do they keep lying? Why do they keep getting caught with Russians and why does a man like Mueller who isn't prone to needless Trey Gowdy expeditions still on the case?

Do you seriously think 16 prolific lawyers who were making multi-million dollars took this case on for nothing?

Maybe they, like you, assume it's literally impossible for there not to be a major scale Administration destroying crime here that will make them more than rich but gods. We already know some of them took it on because they were deluded partisans.

Again, I'd just like to know what crimes Trump has supposedly engaged in that the Obama Administration refused to ever investigate him for. Or to fit with the original mandate of the special counsel, what the illegal collusion between the Trump campaign and Russian government is supposed to look like. I don't know why it's so hard to even hypothetically come up with some plausible ones even if they don't fit any of the facts available.

It's better than the endless frenzy that we're finally going to see Barry Soetoro's real foreign birth certificate this time certainly.

[benjipwns]

That kind of attitude is going to get you reassigned to human resources.

[thehunter116]

That kind of attitude is going to get you reassigned to human resources.

You fool, in capitalism that's were the power is! 

[benjipwns]

More proof that the L's you all took from etiolate on gamergate were well deserved if you think the social studies warriors in AntiFa haven't already seized all the power in human resources for their nefarious ends.

[shosta]

Again, I'd just like to know what crimes Trump has supposedly engaged in that the Obama Administration refused to ever investigate him for. Or to fit with the original mandate of the special counsel, what the illegal collusion between the Trump campaign and Russian government is supposed to look like. I don't know why it's so hard to even hypothetically come up with some plausible ones even if they don't fit any of the facts available.

It's better than the endless frenzy that we're finally going to see Barry Soetoro's real foreign birth certificate this time certainly.

don't you remember Rachel Maddow's elaborate conspiracy that Donald Trump accepted wired funds from Russian oligarchs connected to Putin to lift Russian sanctions and help them launder money through Cyprus... that somehow also involved Orrin Hatch? It was like Glenn Beck's Open Societies chalkboard.

[benjipwns]

if he lifts sanctions why do they need to launder the money through cyprus?

maybe i really do need to rethink this, i keep thinking the crime has to be smart in some manner, maybe Mueller won't find it because it's too stupid

like Flynn's completely stupid crimes, and Donald Jr.'s entire life

[benjipwns]

wait...orrin hatch

crap, i'm compromised

when he was running for president my mom nearly (not really) killed him because he and his aides were jogging at night wearing dark clothes

[shosta]

if he lifts sanctions why do they need to launder the money through cyprus?

Well it's really simple. Kushner or Don Jr. or someone reach out to Russian agents to get the word out that they're interested in that dirt that they have on Hillary Clinton which they found out through... Ok hold on actually it was Michael Cohen who travelled to Europe on that fake passport, no, it was Roger Stone who got in touch with Julian Assange and used his contacts with Russian agents to negotiate the handoff of the usb stick to... ok let me check my notes, I think it was Papadoulous who started the whole thing to let the Russians know that the Trumps were interested in the emails they had, actually they didn't have them yet, ok so Papadoulous reached out to the Russians to tell them he knew that THEY knew how to get into the DNC, so Kislyak talked to... everyone... but Manafort, who was a black book political operative for the Russian puppet regime in Ukraine, used HIS contacts to... ok I think I might be getting some causal elements mixed up here but I know I've got the names right... well anyway regardless of who talked to who during the election, some Russian guy bought one house from Trump for a lot of money a while back and bulldozed the fucking house down which was clearly a money laundering operation... except I'm not sure how the oligarch got his money back... but Trump owes a TON of money to Deutsche Bank which helps oligarchs launder money out of Cyprus, but also through Trump properties, because they totally do both, ok where was I, I lost track, oh yeah you've heard of Russian oligarch Oleg Deripaska right, well he sought immunity to testify to Congress regarding Trump and Manafort, which totally wasn't just an attempt to get out of crimes he committed with US financial assets, and Congress... denied his request... woah speaking of banks do you remember  that whole Washington Post article on how there was "mysterious server" spikes from Trump Tower to a Russian bank, wow, pretty spooky and damning am I right, oh and besides the offer of the money to Trump and his families and the office of the president the Russians had blackmail of Donald Trump in St. Petersburg with prostitutes, which is totally enough to compel him to commit serious crimes and conspiracies, also separate from that but  totally related his businesses have a huuuuuge amount of debt with the Russian banks which is massive leverage even though it hasn't affected Trump before and wasn't going to for the foreseeable future and that's why they needed to get rid of the Russian sanctions. Phew. Hope that makes sense now. I mean it's pretty crazy right? And to think all Nixon had to do was promise a better peace deal than Johnson did, over a telephone.

[kingv]

if he lifts sanctions why do they need to launder the money through cyprus?

maybe i really do need to rethink this, i keep thinking the crime has to be smart in some manner, maybe Mueller won't find it because it's too stupid

like Flynn's completely stupid crimes, and Donald Jr.'s entire life

So there was a time (including today) where they didn’t have sanctions. I would not be surprised to find out at that Trump was laundering money for the Russians.

He might have plausible deniability to a point, but it probably would fall apart once you look into it enough. There’s a few questionable real estate transactions in his past. Like his mansion he sold for above market value to a Russian oligarch who never actually visited or stepped foot on the property before or after the sale.

Also, when did the bore turn into the_donald? Benji is basically brucespringsteen/toilet of denying here.

“Flynn doesn’t know anything and Mueller offered him a deal because.... reasons”

The crimes are already right in front of our faces. Seeking assistance from the Russian government and helping them cover it up is already a violation of the FEC. Facilitating hacking of a Presidental Candidate is a crime (which we have enough public information to suspect if not prove outright). Obstruction of Justice is a crime.

A reasonable person can figure out that they Trump absolutely committed obstruction of justice and probably at least facilitated Russian Government trying to meddle in the campaign or was happy to accept their help, illegally, even if nothing came of it.

[agrajag]

How are you privy to what Don Jr. said in a closed door session, Benji? The only thing we know he did is he refused to answer what he and his dad talked about in regards to his meeting with Russians, citing a bogus lawyer/client confidentiality.

[agrajag]

Again, I'd just like to know what crimes Trump has supposedly engaged in that the Obama Administration refused to ever investigate him for. Or to fit with the original mandate of the special counsel, what the illegal collusion between the Trump campaign and Russian government is supposed to look like. I don't know why it's so hard to even hypothetically come up with some plausible ones even if they don't fit any of the facts available.

It's better than the endless frenzy that we're finally going to see Barry Soetoro's real foreign birth certificate this time certainly.

don't you remember Rachel Maddow's elaborate conspiracy that Donald Trump accepted wired funds from Russian oligarchs connected to Putin to lift Russian sanctions and help them launder money through Cyprus... that somehow also involved Orrin Hatch? It was like Glenn Beck's Open Societies chalkboard.

You mean Wilbur Ross, and yes it involved him because he was the fucking vice chair of the Bank of Cyprus.

[zomgee]

https://www.advocate.com/politics/2017/12/05/sarah-sanders-trump-ok-businesses-hanging-antigay-signs

"The lawyer for the solicitor general's office for the administration said today in the Supreme Court if it would be legal, possible for a baker to put a sign in his window saying we don't bake cakes for gay weddings," The New York Times's Michael Shear asked. "Does the president agree that that would be ok?"

"The president certainly supports religious liberty and that's something he talked about during the campaign and has upheld since taking office," Sanders replied.

When pressed on whether that included support for signs that deny service to gay people, Sanders responded: "I believe that would include that."

great

really great

[agrajag]

Can I post a sign that denies service to fat people? Gluttony is a sin.

You lose, Sanders! 

[Skullfuckers Anonymous]

The closest thing to Trump/Russia collusion existing is the RNC platform change about Ukraine. If Trump can show he had nothing to do with that, he's probably in the clear with regards to that. Obstruction of justice has a better chance at bringing down his Admin.

https://twitter.com/bradheath/status/938138113171443712

The officer turned out to be a pedophile too.
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/12/cop-who-wanted-to-take-pic-of-erection-in-sexting-case-commits-suicide/

He even has the 'just fuck my shit up' haircut.

[Nola]

https://www.advocate.com/politics/2017/12/05/sarah-sanders-trump-ok-businesses-hanging-antigay-signs

"The lawyer for the solicitor general's office for the administration said today in the Supreme Court if it would be legal, possible for a baker to put a sign in his window saying we don't bake cakes for gay weddings," The New York Times's Michael Shear asked. "Does the president agree that that would be ok?"

"The president certainly supports religious liberty and that's something he talked about during the campaign and has upheld since taking office," Sanders replied.

When pressed on whether that included support for signs that deny service to gay people, Sanders responded: "I believe that would include that."

great

really great

No lesser pre-existence spirits or the cursed of Cain allowed.

           - Signed LDS business owner.

[Brehvolution]

https://www.theroot.com/a-racist-flyer-might-cost-doug-jones-the-election-becau-1821065764

[thehunter116]

Yes, the reason democrats suck is because they focus too much on black issues.

I guess that's why the AA vote in the south turned out for Bernie 

[Nola]

https://www.theroot.com/a-racist-flyer-might-cost-doug-jones-the-election-becau-1821065764

Came here to post that. Well not that article, but the flyer:

https://twitter.com/Eugene_Scott/status/938453850557698049

Comes off like when a room of tone deaf and unfunny white people think the only thing that will motivate black people is memes and racism.

[Joe Molotov]

We need a higher-quality pic of that mailer so we can turn it into an emote.

[Skullfuckers Anonymous]

We need a higher-quality pic of that mailer so we can turn it into an emote.

https://twitter.com/Mo___Jackson/status/938834472593756160

This is the best I could find.

[Brehvolution]

https://twitter.com/ajjaffe/status/938637601174679552

On the flip side, here is moore's flyer.