Author Topic: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town  (Read 288862 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5400 on: March 05, 2024, 04:19:46 AM »
You should probably read that sentence in context.

Also the 9-0 opinion:
Quote
The Constitution empowers Congress to prescribe how those determinations should be made. The relevant provision is Section 5, which enables Congress, subject of course to judicial review, to pass “appropriate legislation” to “enforce” the Fourteenth Amendment. See City of Boerne v. Flores, 521 U. S. 507, 536 (1997). Or as Senator Howard put it at the time the Amendment was framed, Section 5 “casts upon Congress the responsibility of seeing to it, for the future, that all the sections of the amendment are carried out in good faith.” Cong. Globe, 39th Cong., 1st Sess., at 2768.

Congress’s Section 5 power is critical when it comes to Section 3. Indeed, during a debate on enforcement legislation less than a year after ratification, Sen. Trumbull noted that “notwithstanding [Section 3] … hundreds of men [were] holding office” in violation of its terms. Cong. Globe, 41st Cong., 1st Sess., at 626. The Constitution, Trumbull noted, “provide[d] no means for enforcing” the disqualification, necessitating a “bill to give effect to the fundamental law embraced in the Constitution.” Ibid. The enforcement mechanism Trumbull championed was later enacted as part of the Enforcement Act of 1870, “pursuant to the power conferred by §5 of the [Fourteenth] Amendment.” General Building Contractors Assn., Inc. v. Pennsylvania, 458 U. S. 375, 385 (1982); see 16 Stat. 143–144.

B

This case raises the question whether the States, in addition to Congress, may also enforce Section 3. We conclude that States may disqualify persons holding or attempting to hold state office. But States have no power under the Constitution to enforce Section 3 with respect to federal offices, especially the Presidency.

...

But nothing in the Constitution delegates to the States any power to enforce Section 3 against federal officeholders and candidates.

...

The respondents nonetheless maintain that States may enforce Section 3 against candidates for federal office. But the text of the Fourteenth Amendment, on its face, does not affirmatively delegate such a power to the States. The terms of the Amendment speak only to enforcement by Congress, which enjoys power to enforce the Amendment through legislation pursuant to Section 5.

This can hardly come as a surprise, given that the substantive provisions of the Amendment “embody significant limitations on state authority.” Fitzpatrick v. Bitzer, 427 U. S. 445, 456 (1976). Under the Amendment, States cannot abridge privileges or immunities, deprive persons of life, liberty, or property without due process, deny equal protection, or deny male inhabitants the right to vote (without thereby suffering reduced representation in the House). See Amdt. 14, §§1, 2. On the other hand, the Fourteenth Amendment grants new power to Congress to enforce the provisions of the Amendment against the States. It would be incongruous to read this particular Amendment as granting the States the power—silently no less—to disqualify a candidate for federal office.

The "progressive" concurrence does not disagree in the slightest:
Quote
Allowing Colorado to do so would, we agree, create a chaotic state-by-state patchwork, at odds with our Nation’s federalism principles. That is enough to resolve this case. Yet the majority goes further. Even though “[a]ll nine Members of the Court” agree that this independent and sufficient rationale resolves this case, five Justices go on. They decide novel constitutional questions to insulate this Court and petitioner from future controversy. Ante, at 13. Although only an individual State’s action is at issue here, the majority opines on which federal actors can enforce Section 3, and how they must do so. The majority announces that a disqualification for insurrection can occur only when Congress enacts a particular kind of legislation pursuant to Section 5 of the Fourteenth Amendment. In doing so, the majority shuts the door on other potential means of federal enforcement. We cannot join an opinion that decides momentous and difficult issues unnecessarily, and we therefore concur only in the judgment.

...

To allow Colorado to take a presidential candidate off the ballot under Section 3 would imperil the Framers’ vision of “a Federal Government directly responsible to the people.”

...

Although we agree that Colorado cannot enforce Section 3

Occam

  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5401 on: March 06, 2024, 10:41:16 AM »
George Conway explains it well:

Quote
What the Court did—and I’m referring to all nine justices here, including the ones who wrote concurrences—was make up a holding utterly unmoored from the text or history of the provision it was interpreting, Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment. That bottom-line holding: “States have no power to enforce Section 3 with respect to federal offices, especially the Presidency.” The justices who wrote separate concurrences—the Court’s four women—seemed to agree with at least this statement of the holding, as far as the presidency is concerned.

But here’s the problem. The Fourteenth Amendment does not say that. It could have—but it doesn’t. It says, in Section 5, “Congress shall have power, to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article,” meaning all of the provisions of the Fourteenth Amendment. But just because Congress has the power to enact legislation to enforce each of the Fourteenth Amendment’s various provisions—which include, most notably, the guarantee of “the equal protection of the laws” in Section 1—doesn’t mean that state officials, or federal or state judiciaries, are disempowered to apply the Fourteenth Amendment. To the contrary, because the Constitution is the supreme law of the land, they have a duty to do that. State officials and state courts have an obligation not to “deny to any person within [the state’s] jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws,” regardless of what Congress does or doesn’t do.

So now Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment is the only provision of the Fourteenth Amendment that may require some congressional action to be enforced, at least in some circumstances. The justices effectively carved out Section 3, without any textual or clear historical basis for doing so.

The Court didn’t even reach that result in a way that makes any sense. Section 3 can be enforced by the states, the Court held, but not for federal offices. Where does the Fourteenth Amendment say that? Where does it say, or even suggest, that federal officeholders are different from state officeholders as far as disqualification is concerned? It doesn’t. The best the Court does is quote an earlier opinion, as well as Justice Joseph Story’s Commentaries, to point out, “Because federal officers owe their existence and functions to the united voice of the whole, not a portion of the people, powers over their election and qualifications must be specifically delegated to, rather than reserved by the States.”

That’s all well and good, but that statement doesn’t bear anything approaching the weight the Court places on it. Because it’s the federal Constitution, not any invention of the states, that says that insurrectionists who violate their oath to support the Constitution can’t hold any federal or state office. And the federal Constitution is binding on the states—always. Which is why the Court recognized that the states could apply—must apply, presumably, because, again, the Constitution is the supreme law of the land—Section 3 to oath-defying insurrectionists who seek state office. But if Section 3 must be applied by the states when they conduct state elections, how is it that they must not do so when the office is federal?

I guess I should stop with the logic, because there really isn’t a lot of it in the Court’s opinion.

Full article, in case you are interested:
spoiler (click to show/hide)
The Court’s Colorado Decision Wasn’t About the Law

This case wasn’t decided on its merits, and the result is an utterly flimsy legal argument.
By George T. Conway III
March 5, 2024, 1:16 PM ET


You can’t always get what you want. What Mick Jagger said about life applies with equal, perhaps even greater, force to litigation. Like life, litigation has its ups and downs. It reflects human fears and frailties—because judges, lawyers, and litigants are human. Law is never perfect, and never will be.

And so it is with the United States Supreme Court’s decision yesterday in Trump v. Anderson, which unanimously reversed the Supreme Court of Colorado’s decision barring Donald Trump from the state’s presidential-primary ballot.

Trump’s brazen effort to end constitutional democracy in America should have been the textbook example of the sort of behavior that would lead to someone being barred from holding public office under the Fourteenth Amendment. But it was not to be, and never was to be.

I talked with a lot of people about the Colorado case over the past three months, and I didn’t come across a single person who appeared willing to wager that the Supreme Court would uphold the Colorado decision; even the most fervent advocates for Trump’s disqualification, the ones who believed (as I was ultimately convinced) that the Colorado decision was unimpeachably correct, did not imagine that the Court was likely to agree. My guess is that none of these people thought they had any votes after the argument three weeks ago.

This private pessimism didn’t arise from legal reasoning. It came from an understanding that it was too much to expect this Court, at this time, in this political context, to apply the Constitution the way the Court normally should: by dispassionately looking at the constitutional text, and the historical context, and letting the chips fall where they may. It may be noble-minded for someone like me, sitting in the cheap seats, to incant my favorite Latin legal maxim, Fiat justitia ruat caelum—“Let justice be done though the heavens may fall.” But I don’t hold a lifetime appointment to decide how justice is to be done. And however much I’d like to think that judges really believe—as Justice Samuel Alito claimed in Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization—that they “cannot allow [their] decisions to be affected by any extraneous influences such as concern about the public’s reaction to [their] work,” the fact is that judges are human. Their decisions are affected at times by their perception of what the public reaction may be.

Few better examples of that will ever arise than the Court’s decision yesterday. I confess that, going in, I gave the Court a lot more credit than the Court eventually showed itself to be due. I wrote that “the people who think the Court is going to reverse no matter what … may well be right.” I was understating things there, but I was convinced that the justices, in reversing, would come up with a stronger opinion than they ultimately did.

They didn’t, because, frankly, there wasn’t anything stronger. And the Supreme Court’s unsigned per curiam opinion—I can’t blame any of the justices for not wanting to put their name on it—makes that painfully, embarrassingly clear. To be sure, the Court deserves some credit. For instance, and with good reason, it didn’t even mention the Trump lawyers’ principal argument, the one that so many people assumed had some purchase: the ridiculous contention that, somehow, the president isn’t an “officer of the United States,” even though the Constitution refers to the presidency as an “office.”

That’s about as much credit as the Court deserves. What the Court did—and I’m referring to all nine justices here, including the ones who wrote concurrences—was make up a holding utterly unmoored from the text or history of the provision it was interpreting, Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment. That bottom-line holding: “States have no power to enforce Section 3 with respect to federal offices, especially the Presidency.” The justices who wrote separate concurrences—the Court’s four women—seemed to agree with at least this statement of the holding, as far as the presidency is concerned.

But here’s the problem. The Fourteenth Amendment does not say that. It could have—but it doesn’t. It says, in Section 5, “Congress shall have power, to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article,” meaning all of the provisions of the Fourteenth Amendment. But just because Congress has the power to enact legislation to enforce each of the Fourteenth Amendment’s various provisions—which include, most notably, the guarantee of “the equal protection of the laws” in Section 1—doesn’t mean that state officials, or federal or state judiciaries, are disempowered to apply the Fourteenth Amendment. To the contrary, because the Constitution is the supreme law of the land, they have a duty to do that. State officials and state courts have an obligation not to “deny to any person within [the state’s] jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws,” regardless of what Congress does or doesn’t do.

So now Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment is the only provision of the Fourteenth Amendment that may require some congressional action to be enforced, at least in some circumstances. The justices effectively carved out Section 3, without any textual or clear historical basis for doing so.

The Court didn’t even reach that result in a way that makes any sense. Section 3 can be enforced by the states, the Court held, but not for federal offices. Where does the Fourteenth Amendment say that? Where does it say, or even suggest, that federal officeholders are different from state officeholders as far as disqualification is concerned? It doesn’t. The best the Court does is quote an earlier opinion, as well as Justice Joseph Story’s Commentaries, to point out, “Because federal officers owe their existence and functions to the united voice of the whole, not a portion of the people, powers over their election and qualifications must be specifically delegated to, rather than reserved by the States.”

That’s all well and good, but that statement doesn’t bear anything approaching the weight the Court places on it. Because it’s the federal Constitution, not any invention of the states, that says that insurrectionists who violate their oath to support the Constitution can’t hold any federal or state office. And the federal Constitution is binding on the states—always. Which is why the Court recognized that the states could apply—must apply, presumably, because, again, the Constitution is the supreme law of the land—Section 3 to oath-defying insurrectionists who seek state office. But if Section 3 must be applied by the states when they conduct state elections, how is it that they must not do so when the office is federal?

I guess I should stop with the logic, because there really isn’t a lot of it in the Court’s opinion. What little logic that does appear is in the form of a policy argument. The Court correctly points out that, when it comes to the presidency, if states were allowed to enforce Section 3 in federal races, a “patchwork” could result, particularly as to presidential candidates. You could have different states applying different standards under Section 3 in different proceedings with different procedures and on differing records, and they could reach differing results as to a particular candidate for the presidency. This, the Court felt, was bad.

Practically speaking, that’s a fair point. As the University of Michigan law professor Richard Primus put it, “The basic substance of the [Court’s] decision—uniform federal process for disqualification in a POTUS election—is reasonable as a matter of constitutional design.” But if I may play conservative scold to this supposedly conservative Court, it’s not for the Supreme Court of the United States to design the Constitution; its job is to apply the one that others designed.

The desire for uniform presidential elections is a great argument for revising the Fourteenth Amendment, but it should have been made to the 39th Congress, whose members did the drafting in 1866. They could have said that states were not free to apply Section 3 on their own, in some or all cases, or only with procedures that Congress specifies. But they didn’t say that. Instead they said that Congress could remove any insurrectionist’s “disability” by a two-thirds majority and, in doing that, made clear that insurrectionists could be barred by other entities—like the states—without action by Congress. What the Court did yesterday, as Primus wrote, simply “doesn’t follow from any theory” of constitutional interpretation “that this Court is willing to endorse.” And despite the Court’s decision on Trump, we will still have a dreaded “patchwork”—because the Constitution has always vested states with the task of running even federal elections. For example, the presidential candidates Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and Cornel West will likely be on some state ballots but not others, precisely because, as the Constitution contemplates and allows, states have differing ballot-access rules.

I could go on picking apart the weaknesses and inconsistencies in the Court’s opinion, and legions of law professors will do so for ages to come, but the Court’s lack of convincing reasoning is, frankly, beside the point. The Court’s decision wasn’t about law. It was about fear.

That fear is most apparent in the concurring opinions, which otherwise make little sense. Justice Amy Coney Barrett’s concurrence gave that fear open expression. It’s hard to know what to make of her two-paragraph opinion. In the first sentence, she says she joined Part II-B—the guts, if you will—of the Court’s opinion; then, in the next four sentences, she rejects a good portion of that section. She writes that she agrees only that “states lack the power to enforce Section 3 against Presidential candidates”—not candidates for federal office generally, as the majority held—and that the Court shouldn’t “address whether federal legislation is the exclusive vehicle through which Section 3 can be enforced.” But that’s mostly what Part II-B is all about.

As for the concurrence of Justice Sonia Sotomayor, joined by Justices Elena Kagan and Ketanji Brown Jackson, it does make an important point: that the Court’s opinion went further than it really had to. It’s normally best for judges to make their rulings as narrow as possible, to avoid deciding cases that haven’t yet come before them. And here, Justice Sotomayor writes, all the Court needed to decide was that the states may not apply Section 3 to presidential candidates; it could have avoided the question of whether federal legislation was required for states to do so. But in making her point that “nothing in Section 3’s text supports the majority’s view of how federal disqualification efforts must operate,” she undercuts her own conclusion that the states are barred from holding that an insurrectionist presidential candidate is disqualified. She points out, correctly, that nothing in the Fourteenth Amendment requires federal legislation, and that the provision by which Congress could remove a disqualification undercuts the argument that legislation is required. But these aren’t just arguments against what the majority did; they are solid arguments in favor of upholding Trump’s disqualification. Sotomayor’s concurrence undermines her own vote.

But again, this case wasn’t about legal reasoning; it was about fear. Fear from all the justices, conservatives and liberals, about the impact on the Court of removing Trump from the ballot. And the second paragraph of Justice Barrett’s opinion bleeds fear onto the page. “This is not the time to amplify disagreement with stridency,” she writes. Was that directed at any of her colleagues? Justice Sotomayor’s opinion is hardly strident at all, as far as Supreme Court separate opinions go, even if it makes little more sense than the majority’s. “The Court has settled a politically charged issue in the volatile season of a Presidential election,” Barrett continues. “Particularly in this circumstance, writings on the Court should turn the national temperature down, not up. For present purposes, our differences are far less important than our unanimity: All nine justices agree on the outcome of this case. That is the message Americans should take home.”

Each of these sentences is true. But why say this? Why not let the Court’s unanimity of judgment and reasoning speak for itself, including that of Sotomayor’s concurrence? Because Justice Barrett—and, I suspect, all the justices—were terrified by the case and what it actually required them to do: affirm Trump’s disqualification.

That may sound depressing, but I see reason to take heart. To be sure, it’s a shame, because this was one circumstance where it would have been nice for the Supreme Court justices to show the courage that some of their colleagues in the lower courts have shown when faced with Trump—judges like Lewis Kaplan, in the Carroll case; Tanya Chutkan, in the federal January 6 case; Justice Arthur Engoron in Trump’s New York civil fraud case; and Justice Juan Merchan, in the upcoming New York criminal case stemming from Trump allegedly cooking his books to pay off an adult-film star. Ultimately, though, litigation will not save us from Trump, and no one should believe that it will.

But litigation will have done its part—even Trump v. Anderson, with its dearth of reasoning and not-quite-satisfactory result. Because there was one very important thing the Court didn’t do yesterday. It didn’t cast one word of doubt about, and expressed not a hint of a disagreement with, the amply supported factual conclusion reached by the Colorado courts: Donald Trump engaged in an insurrection. Just as Trump today stands as an adjudicated sexual abuser, so too he remains an adjudicated insurrectionist. It is up to us, as voters, to make use of those findings come November.

Put another way: You can’t always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you get what you need.
[close]

Additionally, as I pointed out above, the Fourteenth Amendment was previously understood to be "undoubtedly self-executing", meaning congressional action (while possible) is not required for it to come into effect.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2024, 10:51:47 AM by Occam »
504

Nintex

  • Finish the Fight
  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5402 on: March 06, 2024, 03:19:16 PM »
Democrats and defeated anti-Trumpers seem to focus their efforts and attention on all these miracles that will somehow stop Trump, kind of like how the Republicans put all their hopes on Hunter Bidens laptop earlier.
 
If they don't wake up soon and change their strategy, Trump is going to crush them.

🤴

Occam

  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5403 on: March 07, 2024, 03:54:40 AM »
What would you have Biden do to reach those who are trapped inside the Fox News propaganda bubble that blocks out most of reality and constantly tells them not to trust their own lying eyes? Fox, Sinclair etc. simply don't report anything that would cast doubt on their agenda; even major events that are front page news around the world are often completely ignored. As you probably remember there is a study that shows that Fox News viewers are less informed about virtually any topic than people who consume no news at all.

How do you reach those who have insulated themselves against anything that could challenge their propaganda-induced views (at this point I'd say, programming), where up is down, black is white and hot is cold?
There is a reason they readily fall for even the most outlandish conspiracy "theories" and never learn, they are suffering from (or rather, enjoying) terminal brain rot; they don't even experience cognitive dissonance anymore.

These two segments illustrate it nicely:




Edit: Time stamps don't seem to work, go to 06:52 and 08:45
« Last Edit: March 07, 2024, 04:12:20 AM by Occam »
504

Occam

  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5404 on: March 07, 2024, 02:02:09 PM »
This new ad is awesome.



Hope it's shown on Fox, too.
504

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5405 on: March 08, 2024, 02:18:58 AM »
Additionally, as I pointed out above, the Fourteenth Amendment was previously understood to be "undoubtedly self-executing", meaning congressional action (while possible) is not required for it to come into effect.
No, it can't be "self-executing" to create positive law. This is not how American law works. It's "self-executing" in terms of striking down state and federal laws that violate it. The 14th could bar the Confederates because Congress had declared the states in rebellion in 1861 and barred them from office in 1862. Congress additionally enforced that provision with new law in 1870 so it clearly was not fully "self-executing" even despite the prior existing acts. (That same law also re-enacted the 1866 Civil Rights Act because of doubts that it was constitutional pre-14th something that should be unnecessary if the provisions were self-executing.)  States had to ratify the 14th Amendment to be declared out of rebellion with their state constitutions approved by Congress so Congress already had a check on state enforcement that they re-enforced in 1870 by allowing the President to declare martial law.

George Conway is ignorant as usual. Who exactly in the federal government does he think should be deciding eligibility of state candidates? No one has this power granted to them. I have to yet again recommend not listening to lifelong Republican lunatics with no principles like him and the Lincoln Project weirdos.

Occam

  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5406 on: March 08, 2024, 07:29:21 AM »
Is it also self-executing in regards to a rogue court that tries to limit it? So you have no issue with the five concurrences that went beyond the scope of the question and neutered part of the 14th Amendment?

Anyway, I didn't get the self-executing part from Conway or the Lincoln Project (both of whom didn't mention it), I found it looking for precedent and previous rulings.

What Trump did on January 6th was self-evidently an act of insurrection, he tried to prevent the lawful transfer of power and thereby violated his oath of office. Of course the court skirted commenting on Trump's actions.

"However, it is entirely within the power of those who establish and adopt the constitution to make any
of its provisions self-executing, that is, operative without any necessity for further legislation"
https://ia803406.us.archive.org/1/items/westlaw-20-full-text-items-for-american-jurisprudence-2d/Westlaw%20-%207%20full%20text%20items%20for%20American%20Jurisprudence%202d.pdf

In 1883 the Supreme Court declared the 14th Amendment to be self-executing.
Ergo, if an act of insurrection is self-evident no further legislation is required for the perpetrator to be automatically barred from holding office again unless congress exempts him. Which it hasn't.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2024, 08:05:18 AM by Occam »
504

Occam

  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5407 on: March 08, 2024, 07:40:48 AM »
Speaking of the Supreme Kangaroo Court, it has set April 25 as the date it will hear Donald Trump's claim of presidential immunity from prosecution on charges related to his efforts to overturn his 2020 election loss.
April 25 of course being the very last day of the court's term. Meaning there won't be a ruling for months.
They have done exactly what was feared (or rather, expected) they would do in order to protect their Orange Messiah.

What more do you require to acknowledge the court's blatant corruption?
« Last Edit: March 08, 2024, 07:52:05 AM by Occam »
504

Nintex

  • Finish the Fight
  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5408 on: March 08, 2024, 04:53:57 PM »
https://twitter.com/RollingStone/status/1765976347619311964
Quote
“What the hell am I watching right now?” a Trump adviser asked, mid-Britt remarks.
Quote
“Creepy,” one of the Republican pollsters noted.
Quote
A lawyer working in the Trump orbit says the performance reminded them of public-access television, and a senior House congressional aide remarks that it was “cringe”-inducing to watch and likely destined to be turned into a “lame [Saturday Night Live] skit” this weekend.
Quote
“I’ll give Biden this — he at least gave a better speech than Katie Britt,” one national Republican consultant said bluntly.
:trumps
🤴

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5409 on: March 08, 2024, 09:53:37 PM »
Is it also self-executing in regards to a rogue court that tries to limit it? So you have no issue with the five concurrences that went beyond the scope of the question and neutered part of the 14th Amendment?

Anyway, I didn't get the self-executing part from Conway or the Lincoln Project (both of whom didn't mention it), I found it looking for precedent and previous rulings.

What Trump did on January 6th was self-evidently an act of insurrection, he tried to prevent the lawful transfer of power and thereby violated his oath of office. Of course the court skirted commenting on Trump's actions.

"However, it is entirely within the power of those who establish and adopt the constitution to make any
of its provisions self-executing, that is, operative without any necessity for further legislation"
https://ia803406.us.archive.org/1/items/westlaw-20-full-text-items-for-american-jurisprudence-2d/Westlaw%20-%207%20full%20text%20items%20for%20American%20Jurisprudence%202d.pdf

In 1883 the Supreme Court declared the 14th Amendment to be self-executing.
Ergo, if an act of insurrection is self-evident no further legislation is required for the perpetrator to be automatically barred from holding office again unless congress exempts him. Which it hasn't.
Again, you aren't even reading the Supreme Court from 1883 in context of what it's saying. You're plucking out a sentence then changing the meaning to match your ignorance.

You're doing it again with whatever that quote is from. As I told you but you seem to desire to ignore to maintain your fantasy world, this is not how American law works, higher law does not automatically promulgate new lower law without legislation. It only negatively voids prior law.

Under your reasoning all the Red States could bar Democrats from federal offices by simply declaring it "self-evidently an act of insurrection" as you did.

And yes, of course the Court "skirted commenting on Trump's actions" because this is not what the Supreme Court does. It does not decide specific cases.

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5410 on: March 08, 2024, 10:04:10 PM »
For example, after Brown schools did not just automatically desegregate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massive_resistance

Or to use another example, this is why states still had abortion bans that could reactivate after Roe was reversed, because there's no federal legislation on it.

Nintex

  • Finish the Fight
  • Senior Member
🤴


Nintex

  • Finish the Fight
  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5413 on: March 22, 2024, 04:10:22 PM »


It's gonna be a bloodbath alright.
🤴

Nintex

  • Finish the Fight
  • Senior Member
🤴

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5415 on: March 26, 2024, 09:05:04 PM »
I'm voting for Biden this fall.

I'll have to eat crow and say how wrong I was about the right. I've been struggling with this for years in accepting how I'm not truly liberal, if I ever was, and the Democratic Party. My viewpoints don't align with them. I often agree with a lot of Republican talking points and arguments. I think conservatives can make good arguments. I realize I'm more conservative in a lot of ways. But in that I started to disbelieve liberals when they'd argue Republicans want to get rid of rights for women or that they were fascists or racists. It felt like ridiculous rhetoric. I've been observing both parties over the past few months.

I've noticed the uptick in abject racists on Twitter/X. Another thing I'll say I was wrong on was Elon Musk buying it being bad for discourse. Him buying it has un-Earthed an unhinged group of white supremacists emboldened by, even outright supported by him. I'm so used to liberals saying this guy is a Nazi, McCain is a Nazi, that guy is a Nazi, Romney is a Nazi my whole life that I started to just tune out any time liberals spoke of someone being potentially fascist or racist. I was wrong for that. Deeply so. It's like recently they've gone mask off.

Liberals were also right about how Republicans don't want women to have any rights for their body and in my naivete I truly believed that the Republican Party would stop at limits following the Dobbs ruling and leave it to reasonable time frames like 16 weeks. The opposite happened: states like my home state of Texas would institute 8 week bills, and outright endanger girls and women that were victims of sexual assault even girls as young as 10. Now we see clearly what they want for women.

In recent months Republicans online and offline in their political rhetoric have gone after a term called DEI. It has transformed into a replacement for the n word, the same way they used woke and CRT. Today the city of Baltimore has been struck with tragedy when a ship hit the Key Bridge, destroying an important passageway. All Republicans can do is blame the "DEI Mayor" (who was rightfully elected by the way, which goes against the very idea of DEI) and the DEI governor for no reason other than them being black. They use online platforms such as the Musk acquired Twitter to spread hate and fuel animosity.

https://x.com/Phil_Lewis_/status/1772684099703984526

https://x.com/Bubblebathgirl/status/1772600662544515241

This from the same people that said Obama and Biden are divisive towards Americans. Even an American tragedy that affects us all cannot deter their hate.

I now eat the crumbs of my own foolishness and have to express how right liberals were about them and how utterly, utterly wrong I was.

We can wrap this up in almost any issue. Let's start with immigration.

It's good to have a tighter border and now allow illegal immigrants to walk into America without being vetted. That's reasonable and I still stand by that. But that's not the reason the Republican Party doesn't want illegal immigrants. They don't want them because they're not white.

I've finally realized the wisdom of my ancestors. Being more conservative is fine but if you are, remember to vote Democratic. Unfortunately, although the party is filled and filled with numerous issues they're our best bet because people I've described need strict opposition and our country cannot afford an ounce of fence sitting.
IYKYK

BIONIC

  • Virgo. Live Music. The Office. Tacos. Fur mom. True crime junkie. INTJ.
  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5416 on: March 26, 2024, 09:25:09 PM »
lol
Margs

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5417 on: March 26, 2024, 09:39:40 PM »
lol

I agree. Please laugh.



Will I ever be free of the Democratic Party? At this point, who cares?
IYKYK

who is ted danson?

  • ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀✋💎✋🤬
  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5418 on: March 27, 2024, 06:33:07 PM »
I'M RIDIN' DIRTY WITH PAPA JOE BIDEN
⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀

Occam

  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5419 on: March 28, 2024, 02:58:53 PM »
For example, after Brown schools did not just automatically desegregate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massive_resistance

Or to use another example, this is why states still had abortion bans that could reactivate after Roe was reversed, because there's no federal legislation on it.

Thank you for pointing out my misunderstanding regarding the meaning of self-executing in this context.
You didn't address the more pertinent issue though, where the Supreme Court neutered part of the 14th Amendment, by answering a question that wasn't actually asked (which several justices did not agree with).
The text of 14th Amendment does not say anything about requiring further congressional action to determine applicability, and it does not say that states can't enforce it.
Insurrection and incitement thereof is illegal, as per criminal code 18 USC 2383: Rebellion or insurrection, which was enacted by the federal government. Meaning, congress has alreday acted.
https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-1999-title18-section2383&num=0&edition=1999

So if Trump were to be charged (locally or federally) with inciting an insurrection and found guilty (which is of course hypothetical because it hasn't happened), he would be barred from holding office again.

The first part of the Supreme Court decision is ok (states can't simply determine ineligibility [without proper prosecution], the second part (only congress, not a court of law can determine if incitement took place) is not.

Tl;dr “States have no power to enforce Section 3 with respect to federal offices, especially the Presidency.” is nowhere to be found in the text of the 14th Amendment.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2024, 03:31:35 PM by Occam »
504

Nintex

  • Finish the Fight
  • Senior Member
🤴

Occam

  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5421 on: May 21, 2024, 03:47:37 PM »
504



Occam

  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5424 on: June 16, 2024, 02:32:56 AM »
First they came for the libraries, now red states begin to directly indoctrinate children at school. It was about time they did something about reality and those pesky facts getting in the way of creating future "conservative" voters.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/red-states-strike-deals-to-show-controversial-conservative-videos-in-schools/ar-BB1o9CrE

This is totally normal and not something fascists would do.
The result will absolutely be justice and liberty for all!
504

Occam

  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5425 on: July 01, 2024, 05:32:46 PM »
In the last 8 days the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that

1) Bribery is good

2) Insurrection is okay

3) Expertise is superfluous

4) The homeless deserve whatever they get just for being homeless

5) Securities fraud is okay

And today's ruling:
6) Presidents are kings

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/sotomayor-scolds-immunity-decision-for-making-presidents-king-above-the-law/ar-BB1pdWet

This is fine.

504

chronovore

  • relapsed dev
  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5426 on: July 05, 2024, 01:56:35 AM »
Yeah, and the Project 2025 guy came right out and said, "we are in the process of the second American Revolution, which will remain bloodless if the left allows it to be."

Time to start bloodletting, apparently.

https://www.mediamatters.org/project-2025/heritage-foundation-president-celebrates-supreme-court-immunity-decision-we-are

james

  • Donate to the JAMES FUND
  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5427 on: July 08, 2024, 12:21:09 PM »
did you guys hear the biden is old
:O

Raist

  • Winner of the Baited Award 2018
  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5428 on: July 17, 2024, 11:32:11 AM »
did you guys hear the biden is old

It still blows my mind how he does not just look an awful lot older and more frail than during his days as VP, he also looks like a COMPLETELY different guy.


chronovore

  • relapsed dev
  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5429 on: July 23, 2024, 12:29:53 AM »
Obama aged dramatically during his 8 year tenure. It's unsurprising that Biden also aged considerably since then. Plus, he's actually really old. I mean, he's 81. My mom was 81, and died in April of this year. Biden's doing one of the toughest jobs in the world, as an 81 year old.

Raist

  • Winner of the Baited Award 2018
  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5430 on: July 23, 2024, 05:50:28 PM »
I know, Obama aged like 20 years over just 8. But Biden just looks like a very different guy. Not just on older one.

Also, sorry for your loss man :(

Occam

  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5431 on: July 25, 2024, 12:26:54 AM »
Sorry for your loss, cronovore.

A helpful article to counter MAGAt lies:
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/24/opinion/trump-lies-charts-data.html

Virtually everything they claim is easily disproven lies.
Their brains run on farts.
504

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5432 on: July 25, 2024, 10:34:48 PM »
Sorry for your loss, Chrono.

Go Harris. I've donated and I'm actually excited to vote. I'm really impressed with how Harris has turned it around from just a few years ago. Where she used to lack charisma, she now has it out the ass. Where she used to not look Presidential, she has it in spades. She made a speech the other night and she seemed night and day a different person entirely. I fully support her effort despite having many criticisms for her over the years.

Have to do everything in our power to stop Project 25.
IYKYK

Occam

  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5433 on: July 26, 2024, 02:03:07 AM »
504

Phoenix Dark

  • I got no game it's just some bitches understand my story
  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5434 on: July 30, 2024, 11:33:37 AM »
Obama aged dramatically during his 8 year tenure. It's unsurprising that Biden also aged considerably since then. Plus, he's actually really old. I mean, he's 81. My mom was 81, and died in April of this year. Biden's doing one of the toughest jobs in the world, as an 81 year old.

Sorry for your loss man  :cry
010


Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5436 on: August 06, 2024, 02:10:01 PM »
Walz as Veep. Wow, the party is united. Time to come back home to the Democrats. We back! :rejoice
IYKYK

chronovore

  • relapsed dev
  • Senior Member

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5438 on: August 06, 2024, 11:18:44 PM »
The rally energy is infectious. This is so refreshing! Watch the whole thing.

IYKYK

Occam

  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5439 on: August 07, 2024, 12:29:03 AM »
Republicans are creepy and weird.

504

Himu

  • Senior Member
« Last Edit: August 08, 2024, 12:49:24 PM by Himu »
IYKYK

Occam

  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5441 on: August 10, 2024, 05:04:47 AM »
I realize we are beating a dead horse here, but Trump really is mentally ill. He has some form of degenerative brain disease (dementia causing delusions). He should be in an old folks home receiving special care. He isn't fit to be in charge of anything, especially not the presidency of the United States.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/08/truth-about-trumps-press-conference/679425/

spoiler (click to show/hide)
The Truth About Trump’s Press Conference

His obvious emotional instability is frightening, not funny.
By Tom Nichols

Donald Trump’s public events are a challenge for anyone who writes about him. His rallies and press conferences are rich sources of material, fountains of molten weirdness that blurp up stuff that would sink the career of any other politician. By the time they’re over, all of the attendees are covered in gloppy nonsense.

And then, once everyone cleans up and shakes the debris off their phones and laptops, so much of what Trump said seems too bonkers to have come from a former president and the nominee of a major party that journalists are left trying to piece together a story as if Trump were a normal person. This is what The Atlantic’s editor in chief, Jeffrey Goldberg, has described as the “bias toward coherence,” and it leads to careful circumlocutions instead of stunned headlines.

Consider Trump’s press conference yesterday in Florida. Trump has been lying low since President Joe Biden withdrew from the presidential race, at least in terms of public appearances. But Vice President Kamala Harris, the new Democratic nominee, and her running mate, Governor Tim Walz, are gaining a lot of great press, and so Trump decided it was time to emerge from his sanctuary.

Trump, predictably, did an afternoon concert of his greatest hits, including “Doctors and Mothers Are Murdering Babies After They’re Born,” “Putin and Xi Love Me and I Love Them,” and “Gas Used to Be a Buck-Eighty-Something a Gallon.” But the new material was pretty shocking.

Trump not only declared that mothers are killing babies in the delivery room—he’s been saying that for years—but added the incomprehensible claim that liberals, conservatives, and independents alike are very happy that abortion has been returned to the states. (When asked how he would vote in Florida’s abortion referendum, he dodged the question, which suggests that maybe not everyone is happy.)

He said (again) that the convicted January 6 insurrectionists have been treated horribly, but this time he added that no one died during the assault on the Capitol. (In fact, four people died that day.) He made his usual assertion that Russia would never have invaded Ukraine if he’d been in office, but this time he added how much he looked forward to getting along with the Iranians, despite also bragging about how he tanked the nuclear deal with them.

He claimed that Harris was sliding in the polls, a standard Trump trope in talking about his opponents, but he added that he was getting crowd sizes up to 30 times hers at his rallies. Harris recently spoke to approximately 15,000 people in Detroit; 30 times that would be nearly half a million people, so Trump is now saying that he’s having rallies that are five times bigger than the average crowd at a Super Bowl—bigger, even, than Woodstock—and somehow fitting them all into arenas with seats to spare.

For the moment, let’s assume that Trump just gargled up a number he couldn’t comprehend. But he apparently knows we are in Olympics season, so he followed all of this by going for the gold: His rallies are not just big, they’re the biggest ever.

“Nobody has spoken to crowds bigger than me,” Trump said. And then, referring to the crowd that gathered at his behest on January 6, he compared it to the 1963 March on Washington: “If you look at Martin Luther King, when he did his speech, his great speech, and you look at ours: same real estate, same everything, same number of people.”

The March on Washington drew a quarter million people, almost six times the number that showed up during the attack on the Capitol. Trump agreed that official estimates said his crowd was smaller than King’s. He pressed on anyway: “But when you look at the exact same picture and everything is the same—because it was the fountains, the whole thing all the way back to go from Lincoln to Washington—and you look at it, and you look at the picture of my crowd … we actually had more people.”

Then things got even weirder.

Trump claimed that former San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown said bad things about Harris while he and Trump were on a helicopter together. Oh—and the helicopter was in trouble:

"    We thought maybe this was the end. We were in a helicopter, going to a certain location together, and there was an emergency landing. This was not a pleasant landing. And Willie was—he was a little concerned.

    So I know him, but I know him pretty well. I mean, I haven’t seen him in years. But he told me terrible things about her. But this is what you’re telling me, anyway, I guess. But he had a big part in what happened with Kamala. But he—he, I don’t know, maybe he’s changed his tune. But he—he was not a fan of hers very much, at that point."

Brown has not had to change his tune, because none of this ever happened. Trump may have confused Willie Brown with former California Governor Jerry Brown, with whom Trump once shared an uneventful helicopter ride. (One might think they’re hard to mix up: Willie Brown is Black; Jerry Brown is white.) In any case, trying to untangle the half-cooked pasta of a Trump story isn’t really worth the effort. The issue is that a former president is frighteningly delusional, and if any other candidate had done this—Biden was roasted over stories that were obscure but turned out to be true—it would dominate the news with understandable alarm about the well-being of the candidate.

Reporters might listen to Trump and then understandably be reluctant to start typing stories that must feel like spec scripts for The West Wing pieced together by a creative-writing circle:

    "The former president, lying about abortion laws, said women murder their own babies in the delivery room. He megalomaniacally claimed that he gets bigger crowds than anyone in history, and compared himself to Martin Luther King Jr. He descended into fantasy by telling a story about surviving a helicopter emergency that never happened with a man who wasn’t there."

Instead, The New York Times ran this headline: “Trump Tries to Wrestle Back Attention at Mar-a-Lago News Conference.” The Washington Post said: “Trump Holds Meandering News Conference, Where He Agrees to Debate Harris.” The British paper The Independent got closer with: “Trump Holds Seemingly Pointless Press Conference Filled With False Claims,” but CNN went with “Trump Attacks Harris and Walz During First News Conference Since Democratic Ticket Was Announced.”

All of these headlines are technically true, but they miss the point: The Republican nominee, the man who could return to office and regain the sole authority to use American nuclear weapons, is a serial liar and can’t tell the difference between reality and fantasy.

Donald Trump is not well. He is not stable. There’s something deeply wrong with him.

Any of those would have been important—and accurate—headlines.
[close]
504

Occam

  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5442 on: August 10, 2024, 06:59:37 AM »
Trump knows he's losing and he is basically disintegrating in front of the world. I wonder how much longer he'll be able to tie his own shoes.
504

james

  • Donate to the JAMES FUND
  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5443 on: August 13, 2024, 03:29:44 PM »
trump is old lol
:O

Occam

  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5444 on: August 13, 2024, 04:44:36 PM »
Could it be that it's actually over for Dementia Don?

504

Occam

  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5445 on: August 16, 2024, 02:33:56 PM »
About Project 2025

504

Occam

  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5446 on: August 19, 2024, 06:47:09 AM »
Everything that Trump has ever touched has turned to shit, including the brains of the people who root for him.
504

Occam

  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5447 on: August 20, 2024, 02:08:12 AM »
New Fox poll. Dementia Don is going down.
504

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5448 on: August 23, 2024, 06:40:20 AM »
Trump is done.  Country is ready to move forward into a positive future. This is what everyone wanted. Positivity. Competent leadership. I was talking on the coli and I said that the energy at the DNC was more patriotic than the republicans’. Dems stole the Republican patriotism steez and rolled it with that almost Reagan esque patriotism  that I haven’t seen from USA for a long time. One guy quoted me and said that the energy feels almost pre-9/11 with that 90’s esque “it doesn’t matter if you’re black or white” idealistic zeal. I agreed. Seems most of the country agrees it’s time to move on. This negativity and division is fucking draining. The last four years have been insane. I’ve lost my got damn marbles because of it at times and I know I’m not alone. It’s really easy losing yourself in the muck when people are feeding on your fears and just saying “look, those are bad guys” doesn’t cut it. I know it’s not good to expect much from political campaigns. Don’t expect them to save the world. But it feels like a change is in the air.
IYKYK

Occam

  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5449 on: August 24, 2024, 03:10:57 PM »
Eventually all the right wing insanity and gaslighting must come to an end. You know the saying (often incorrectly attributed to Lincoln): You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.

504

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5450 on: August 25, 2024, 04:22:50 AM »
Trump is done.  Country is ready to move forward into a positive future. This is what everyone wanted. Positivity. Competent leadership. I was talking on the coli and I said that the energy at the DNC was more patriotic than the republicans’. Dems stole the Republican patriotism steez and rolled it with that almost Reagan esque patriotism  that I haven’t seen from USA for a long time. One guy quoted me and said that the energy feels almost pre-9/11 with that 90’s esque “it doesn’t matter if you’re black or white” idealistic zeal. I agreed. Seems most of the country agrees it’s time to move on. This negativity and division is fucking draining. The last four years have been insane. I’ve lost my got damn marbles because of it at times and I know I’m not alone. It’s really easy losing yourself in the muck when people are feeding on your fears and just saying “look, those are bad guys” doesn’t cut it. I know it’s not good to expect much from political campaigns. Don’t expect them to save the world. But it feels like a change is in the air.

As said

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4844982-democratic-party-patriotism-harris-speech/
IYKYK

Occam

  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5451 on: August 26, 2024, 03:49:18 PM »
A few days ago Dementia Don actually admitted losing the 2020 election to Joe Biden. Seems his failing brain is having an ever harder time keeping track of all the lies:

https://www.mediaite.com/news/trump-admits-defeat-to-biden-during-press-conference-didnt-quite-make-it/
« Last Edit: August 26, 2024, 03:56:06 PM by Occam »
504

Occam

  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5452 on: August 29, 2024, 01:18:20 PM »


Added bonus: read comments for MAGAt tears.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2024, 01:26:10 PM by Occam »
504

Occam

  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5453 on: September 01, 2024, 07:13:05 AM »
504

Occam

  • Senior Member
504

chronovore

  • relapsed dev
  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5455 on: September 04, 2024, 01:24:15 AM »
I really don't understand the Trumpers' acceptance of JD Vance as the veep candidate. JD has the "think on his feet" instincts of a deer in headlights. Can you imagine if Trump becomes unable to fulfill POTUS duties as an unhealthy, overweight, possibly dementia, possibly drug addicted octogenarian, and this partially shaved Teddy Ruxpin looking frat house reject comes rolling in for work as lead of the free world?

Is that what they want? I mean, that's likely.

tiesto

  • ルカルカ★ナイトフィーバー
  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5456 on: September 04, 2024, 11:07:18 AM »
It's funny, Trump originally wanted to go with Doug Burgum, who would've been a smart pick for him - understated, generic republican with typical center-right beliefs about energy and climate and the economy that wouldn't have rocked Trump's boat.. but listened to Musk and his kid and picked some weirdo natalist with an awkward demeanor and Handmaids Tale-esque beliefs about women and their place in society.
^_^

Occam

  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5457 on: September 05, 2024, 10:57:03 AM »
Goldman Sachs says Kamala Harris, Democrats better for economy than Trump

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/goldman-sachs-says-kamala-harris-194000786.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall

No shit, Sherlock.
504

Nintex

  • Finish the Fight
  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5458 on: September 08, 2024, 05:11:46 PM »


Polls this far out don't really matter :trumps
🤴

james

  • Donate to the JAMES FUND
  • Senior Member
Re: USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town
« Reply #5459 on: September 10, 2024, 06:11:35 PM »
Big debate tonight

I have 3$ on Trump having a computer reboot moment
:O